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  • edited February 4
    Andrew,  However hard you try, the only way your theory(s) works is by major fraud,and you seem to feel that these people are smart enough to firstly devise the dastardly plan, and then  clever and confident  enough to think they can get away with it.Too much supposition for me and just a slight touch of speculation.
    Fake news for me .
    Cadleigh
  • Cadleigh said:
    Andrew2 said:
    Please let nobody for one moment believe Jenkins has resigned over anything. It was always going to happen, part of the long term plan. I did tell you it would happen.

    It always was to appear as if there was a breakdown between him and the owners. How else could he carry out the final act ?

    I did tell you two years ago the plan was always to re own the club after administration, the plan has never changed. He can not be part of the club when it enters administration then proclaim to be the saviour, this way he thinks he can.

    All the opinion is "we will not accept it" well, the supporters have accepted anything and everything for 5 seasons, they will accept another term with Jenkins at the helm without a whimper.

    The Trust will be no more so Jenkins and Morgan plus two others will ride into town and claim what they feel is theirs. 

    Just to recap, your theory is:

    Jenkins persuaded Kaplan, Levein and 25 other American investors to take part in a scam that puts The Sting to shame. His cunning plan was to take an established Premier League team with an annual income of £130m, sell 70% of the shares for £70m (so far so good), deliberately get it relegated, watch the shares (including his own remaining investment) disintegrate in value, recompense the Americans by shifting £70m to them by embezzling it from the club under the scrutiny of the auditors, journalists like David Conn etc, deliberately sell our best players so we tumble further through the divisions, fail to balance the books, take us into administration - all so he can buy an L2 club for £5m and hope he can repeat his previous feat of taking us back up the leagues and turn his £5m into £130m again?

    Wouldn't it have been simpler to have kept us in the Premier League, banked his share of the £70m and watched his remaining share grow in value?

    If that's his plan, who the hell sanctioned the appointment of a competent manager in Potter? Surely they'd have hired Charlie Morgan or that Azerbaijani decorator that Cardiff employed as their head of recruitment?

    That's a cunning plan


    Cadleigh
  • Got to laugh at Dai Carpets.

    Doing a little whip round now to try and save the club.

    Yet when I pointed out to him back in September that he was directly funding the destruction of the club by continuing to sponsor them to the tune of £0000s per season he got very uppity indeed and threatened to send the boys round.

    Absolute melt.
    Mark_Jack_LondonGardo
  • Cadleigh said:
    Andrew2 said:
    Please let nobody for one moment believe Jenkins has resigned over anything. It was always going to happen, part of the long term plan. I did tell you it would happen.

    It always was to appear as if there was a breakdown between him and the owners. How else could he carry out the final act ?

    I did tell you two years ago the plan was always to re own the club after administration, the plan has never changed. He can not be part of the club when it enters administration then proclaim to be the saviour, this way he thinks he can.

    All the opinion is "we will not accept it" well, the supporters have accepted anything and everything for 5 seasons, they will accept another term with Jenkins at the helm without a whimper.

    The Trust will be no more so Jenkins and Morgan plus two others will ride into town and claim what they feel is theirs. 

    Just to recap, your theory is:

    Jenkins persuaded Kaplan, Levein and 25 other American investors to take part in a scam that puts The Sting to shame. His cunning plan was to take an established Premier League team with an annual income of £130m, sell 70% of the shares for £70m (so far so good), deliberately get it relegated, watch the shares (including his own remaining investment) disintegrate in value, recompense the Americans by shifting £70m to them by embezzling it from the club under the scrutiny of the auditors, journalists like David Conn etc, deliberately sell our best players so we tumble further through the divisions, fail to balance the books, take us into administration - all so he can buy an L2 club for £5m and hope he can repeat his previous feat of taking us back up the leagues and turn his £5m into £130m again?

    Wouldn't it have been simpler to have kept us in the Premier League, banked his share of the £70m and watched his remaining share grow in value?

    If that's his plan, who the hell sanctioned the appointment of a competent manager in Potter? Surely they'd have hired Charlie Morgan or that Azerbaijani decorator that Cardiff employed as their head of recruitment?

    That's a cunning plan



    Wouldn't it have been simpler to Jenkins have sold his shares to the Yanks and bought Newport County instead? No money laundering needed and with his talent for playing the transfer market they'd have been Premier League by now...
  • Best thread in a while.  Can't wait for Baldrick to chime in!!!!
  • There gold in them thar hidden accounts. Their being kept hidden for a reason. Suspicious behaviour if there ever was any.
  • Phillip said:
    jollyboy said:
    Phillip or anyone else 
    Please anyone that thinks the Yanks are using club money to pay for the shares they have bought explain your theory/logic.
    Whether it be from a secondary Swansea company set up or loan fees etc

    Why would anyone in their right mind allow someone to pay them for their shares with money that is already theirs.
    Financially this really makes no sense.

    That logic just does not add up
    You've only gone and done it MJID, be prepared for a nonsensical ramble

    They fiddled it, embezzlement possibly, illegal possibly, criminal possibly, don't you think they would be up in arms over many allegations and become transparent if there wasn't anything dodgy going on, they are hiding everything from those who have an interest for the football club.
    For those who believe everything is above board need to have a good hard look back at the last 4 years
    Other than annual accounts, no club in the world is as transparent as you would like, the Trust, who through Stuart McDonald (a chartered accountant by profession) see the monthly management accounts, he also meets with the CFO weekly, anything untoward would be picked up immediately. What their beef with the owners is that it doesn't see projections and how much is needed to be saved. We all knew dropping down would be painful and maybe we do have to take the hard medicine to make sure we don't go like a Bolton/Portsmouth etc. but without seeing projections, the Trust doesn't know how much medicine in needs to take.
    The owners will let Stuart see the full set of accounts but he has to sign a NDA, ie he can only put members (and supporters) minds at rest and not tell us figures, the Trust believe this is too much of a burden for one man and want to send in its financial team to do some analysing, I believe that's where the inpasse is.
    You say take a good hard look at the last 4 years, I'd say just look at the last 4 windows to see where the money has gone, massive mistakes, yes but nowhere would I suggest anything corrupt.
    garythenotrashcougar
  • edited February 5
    Let’s say for one minute that Stuart was to find ‘irregularities’ or money unaccounted for and answers were not forthcoming would an NDA still be valid? What if he believes something criminal or corrupt has taken place. Is he still bound by such an agreement? Surely not.

  • Andrew2 said:
    Cadleigh
    You have not kept up.
    First of all, they did not pay £70m for any shares, it was much less. Second, they are not prepared to gamble one penny, so demise from the PL was inevitable, and, as the plan sold was win or lose you win, relegation was no big deal, in fact it meant for sure there was never going to be any risk.

    Tell me, if you think they crave the PL so much, we well well positioned just 10 days ago for a play of place, what did they do ? They tried to endure we go nowhere near the PL and all the costs that brings.

    Cadleigh, try and see the last 4/5 years all joined up, there is only one conclusion.

    So, your mocking I am afraid is very wide of the mark, but then you mocked when I told you what Jenkins was up to.
    Cadleigh, is very close with his analogy, why would anyone want to take us down, they would even get their money back in the championship.
    There is a new TV deal on the horizon and I'm told it will dwarf the current one, that's where the money is and if not there, someone else would buy the club doubling the share value. The Americans long term plan was to buy relatively cheap and sell for perhaps double, they are now doing the sensible thing, stabilising and having another go at getting back up.
    We are mid table, hadn't lost (until Saturday) in 2019, 5th round of the FA Cup, its where we all predicted we'd be this season.
    Bob
  • The ability to buy out the owners is possible if you go big with the fan base so as to go small with the financial burden on each fan. For example if 20,000 fans were to chip in £3,500 each this would amount to the £70mil total. I’m guessing, however that the shares are not as expensive so some leaverage can be applied to get the total down still further. My musings on a dream of a fully owned club by the fans for the fans is possible surely?
    MikeTasmania
  • edited February 5
    Love the idea SeaJack. Seems a far better one than what the owners have come up with so far. I’d be interested at that price.
  • SeaJack said:
    The ability to buy out the owners is possible if you go big with the fan base so as to go small with the financial burden on each fan. For example if 20,000 fans were to chip in £3,500 each this would amount to the £70mil total. I’m guessing, however that the shares are not as expensive so some leaverage can be applied to get the total down still further. My musings on a dream of a fully owned club by the fans for the fans is possible surely?
    My musings on a dream of a fully owned club by the fans for the fans is possible surely?

    We had what you were asking for but just look at what happened. Have a look at Daicarpets twitter and you will see that John clog held his hand up to say, "I'M in."

  • £3,500 off 20,000, won't happen, I'd be in at that price but there be little appetite by the masses. When it was down on its luck in 2001/02, collecting the first £50k was a struggle and took the best part of a year, the other £150k wasn't much easier and took another 6 years, not trying to piss on anyone's chips but can't see it being anything other than a pipe dream.
    BTW, I reckon £30-£35m would be acceptable to the Americans.
  • So between £1500-1750 for that amount. Even more palatable to the fan base. Remember this time it will be an investment where the shares are bought off the current owners and so it will be officially the amount of shares you buy is what you own. It could be £10 or a £1000 and if some have the money to spend and want to pay more then good for them, great for the club. And further on down the line if we (and it would literally mean we this time around) were Premier League once again the fans could either en masses sell to a suitable owner at a profit or just sit on the shares and keep on building the club. Scenarios could happen whereby a fan could sell at a profit to another fan at the asking price they would be once in the Premier League. There is an element of risk accepted but it would be the £1500-1750 at risk instead of the eye watering (for me anyway) £50000. To me there is an element of elitism in asking for those people with a disposable £50000 income to chip in and no one else with less to offer. Why not £100 why not a tenner. Every little helps.
  • But you’d only be buying the shares where would the money come from for day to day running of the club ,wages , transfers , two training facilities  stadium lease etc . You’d be back in the same boat by selling your best prospects to survive and would end up maybe in the lower leagues . Good idea to purchase the shares by fans but ......
  • Ok my dream is only the start and you’re right about the the day to day running costs being a real headache. However you do have to ask yourself if it’s true that we haven’t got a pot to relieve ourselves in then how do our big shot owners do it? Where there’s a will there’s a way as they say.
    One thing that we can count on is that as shareholders we would be pulling in the same direction overall. Thinking about the buying shares with a tenner idea just think even Catherine Zeta-Jones and Michael Douglas could afford a flutter with that amount. And imagine the kudos for the club that would come with that? They along with any fans who have paid that amount could be referred to as the tenner brigade. £100 and your a tonner and so on and so forth. One thing’s for sure be it ten shares or a million bought we would all be part of the same SCFC family equally.
  • Jollyboy, Stuart and Lisa see the Management accounts, but that is only half the story.

    They have requested the financial statements, but so far they have not been supplied.

    And while they dont believe money is being taken out of the club, until they see this information, they cannot be 100% sure.

    So let's get the full facts out there, not just half a story.
  • The big shots have done it by selling of high earners and using the profits probably and the last prem payment last August . Don’t forget they payed for June and July wages then took the money back . They haven’t as we all now put anything in to help run the club in day to day duties
  • What I ment was they haven’t invested anything to help 
  • It is worth a question as to whether the shares were bought up front or bought with club income
    When the Glazers bought Manure they did it by putting the club's income up as collateral for loans to buy it
    That is illegal elsewhere in Europe but not in UK

    Learning from that great example of US entrepreneurship our beloved owners - who always use OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY - could easily have pulled such a stunt
    The question is how you check that
    Meantime good on the Stateside Jacks for kicking off a process of reasoned questioning
    I strongly expect them to be told " F off it's a private club " as soon as the questions get pointed though
    SeaJack
  • It is worth a question as to whether the shares were bought up front or bought with club income
    When the Glazers bought Manure they did it by putting the club's income up as collateral for loans to buy it
    That is illegal elsewhere in Europe but not in UK

    Learning from that great example of US entrepreneurship our beloved owners - who always use OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY - could easily have pulled such a stunt
    The question is how you check that
    Meantime good on the Stateside Jacks for kicking off a process of reasoned questioning
    I strongly expect them to be told " F off it's a private club " as soon as the questions get pointed though
    I could be wrong but I am pretty certain that the Glazers bought 100% of Man Utd so they had absolute power to transfer the debt that they incurred (borrowing the money to buy the club) on to the club itself. 

    K&L and the consortium they lead own 70% of the shares. As (thanks to Jenkins, Morgan et al) they also control the voting rights of all the other shareholders apart from the Trust, giving them a working majority on the board, they could in theory impose a similar situation on the Swans - but not without a vote of the board, at which the Trust would be represented, at which point all Hell would break loose I am sure.

    Besides which, if they were going to do it they’d have done it the first year they owned the club, and that would have appeared in the accounts for 2016-17, which were published in April 2018, as an increased debt of £70m. No such debt appeared.
  • Jollyboy, Stuart and Lisa see the Management accounts, but that is only half the story.

    They have requested the financial statements, but so far they have not been supplied.

    And while they dont believe money is being taken out of the club, until they see this information, they cannot be 100% sure.

    So let's get the full facts out there, not just half a story.
    And you give us only 2/3rds of a story, Andy Godden's in too.

    My point is, if a million or more was being syphoned off, the Trust would know from the monthly management accounts along with Stuart's weekly meeting with the CFO.
    Mark_Jack_London
  • I seem to recall that the method employed by the Glaziers was later made illegal or at least the PL/FA rules were changed to outlaw the practice. Can anyone confirm this, or did I dream it ? 
  • The Glaziers borrow £275m from 3 hedge funds to buy United in 2005. 15 months later, with interest added, it amounted to £345m, and at that point they refinanced.

    This then meant they owed £532m owed to banks, and still £138m owed to hedge funds.

    Despite record income of £590m in their last accounts, they also showed that United’s borrowings remain at £487m from the Glazer takeover, which Ed Woodward was instrumental in structuring with £525m debts loaded on to the club, £275m

    The Glaziers have drained over £1bn out of United in their 13 years ownership through interests on that borrowing, costs, fees and dividends.

    The dividends to date have been around £65m.

    Added to that is the salaries to the Glazier kids in the last 3 years of accounts have been £13m, £12m, and £11m.
     I cant find figures on how much they have paid themselves before that.

    They get away with it, because the club turns over so much, so dont trouble fair play. otherwise they'd be fugged.

    I dont see how the Americans could do this without bankrupted the Swans, nor could they justify such salaries, as they are not in sole ownership, so unfair prejudice could be called against them.


  • I'd add deekay, that I cant find anything on the FA outlawing leveraged buy-outs, which is what United is. 

    In fact, if there was, then Stan Kronke wouldnt have needed to deny that he was going to leverage against Arsenal when he bought Usmanov's shares last year.
  • If Andrew’s projections are right and the end game is administration then there is some scope for them transferring the debt onto the club. I hope this is wrong but I wouldn’t put it past them.
  • Going back to my dream of complete ownership of the club by the fans. If the Trust decide to go to court and win and they are granted the £21m then at the knockdown price of £30-35mil, this can be used in helping to buyout the current owners. At £21 what would be left is £9-14mil. If the 20000 were to buy the remaing shares this would work out at £450-700 per fan/owner. With this scenario in mind the Trust would have exceeded its magic 25% ownership and would be able to steer the club in a direction that is good for the club exclusively. Everyone’s a winner, everyone feels connected to the club once more, everyone’s happy (including those fans who albeit won’t be owners but would then start to buy season tickets, merchandise etc, safe in the knowledge that their beloved club once again belongs to them). Incidentally the cost of a season ticket for one season may just do it so when the time comes what better way to send a message to the owners for all those refusing to renew them. The cost of a season ticket, that may be all that it takes.
    deekay
  • edited February 6
    SeaJack,
    Your dream of the fans completely owning the football club can be based on the Exeter
    City model(are you Ponty in disguise
  • Ha. Not so Colin. I don’t have the posting stamina that Ponty has.
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