Ollie

Are we a better team without Olllie. Are we better without an out and centre forward. Our last two games have shown we are I would say. I welcome opinions on this
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  • Routledge plays more like an out and out centre forward than McBurnie does. Leads the line, runs in behind, even holds the ball up well at times. Knows how to get the better of Championship centre halves.
  • Oli could always be played out wide where he was quite effective last season at Barnsley.
    Having said that there could be something in Potter’s subs choice, like for like players, or was there a message to Oli there from Potter.
  • It's up for debate cos without him we've hit 6 goals but there were times v boro when Connor was looking to put a cross in but no one was in the box  
  • MarkG said:
    It's up for debate cos without him we've hit 6 goals but there were times v boro when Connor was looking to put a cross in but no one was in the box  
    yes, but IMO, most of those crosses would  usually be from half way between the halfway line & goal line & Mc Burnie is never in the goalmouth area to receive those. He only is successful with crosses close to the byeline
  • Oli is a proven goalscorer so if he's fit and ready to go I'd always pick him, unless of course our esteemed manager prefers another option to counter a particular team. Had we lost the last two games then this thread would not even exist and the question would  never be asked. Oli has made a massive contribution this season, without his goals we'd have struggled big time 
    Swansballer
  • Pablo said:
    Oli is a proven goalscorer so if he's fit and ready to go I'd always pick him, unless of course our esteemed manager prefers another option to counter a particular team. Had we lost the last two games then this thread would not even exist and the question would  never be asked. Oli has made a massive contribution this season, without his goals we'd have struggled big time 
    Alternative theory: if we'd dropped him sooner we wouldn't have been so reliant on his goals, as we would have created more chances for more players as we've done recently. Celina looks much happier now he's not got Ollie intruding on his spaces, and so many pacey options ahead of him to draw defenders away creating space and passes. Sometimes when a single player is getting almost all of your goals and results aren't great it's a systemic issue, not a sign of a brilliant goalscorer in a poor side.

    We didn't lose the last two or come close to losing them, so that's a weird hypothetical. What if we'd lost every game Ollie started this season?!?!
    enaitch
  • edited April 9
    Barmyjack raises an interesting debate. I have had similar thoughts after recent performances and i’m sure others have too. That should not be seen as anything negative towards Ollie who has performed outstandingly all season running the lone striker role practically on his own as well as bagging many goals. However we do appear to be far more fluid up front and the interchanging of players coupled with genuine pace seems to have opposition defenders chasing shadows. So many more options seem to be available. Have we just clicked as a team or as some have hinted is this down to the way Ollie plays or even how we have asked him to play? Whatever the answer we are now looking very difficult to contain and more and more like the fast counter attacking team that Potter moulded at Ostersund and showed against Arsenal at the Emirates. I also hope that Ollie stays important to the team as he may allow us to change our focal point against teams that may be successful defending against the pace. What have we as fans always asked for? Football, football, football through passing and a Plan B when its not happening. We may have just found that either deliberately or inadvertently. Lets hope we can make a late run to the play offs. Good luck tonight boys.
  • Can we be accused of looking too much into performances in the last two home games, as exciting and thrilling they may have been and not giving due praise to Oli's contribution over a very tough season. Could it be said that Brentford and Boro were way below the doggedness displayed by the likes of Blackburn and Wigan earlier in the season at the Liberty.
    Impressive away performances utilising the same system recently yielded very little in points yet only gives an indication of how tough and remorseless the Championship and EFL actually are, where teams need more than one, two or three arrows to find the bullseye as one match after another looms on the horizon.
    What performances like last week give to fans however is a perspective of hope for the future, but sadly that hope is no doubt going to be marginalised when the club's real financial picture is laid bare to the fans in weeks to come amid the sheer importance of reducing the wage bill.
    It takes time for a team to develop the pattern of play witnessed recently, yet giving praise to Celina, as well as he has performed can only be part of the team's success. George Byers's performances in midfield have surprised many fans, including myself, showing maturity in his play that makes a mockery of previous managers' refusal to give him a first team opportunity. Yet, what can be said about the resurgence of form shown by veterans Dyer and Routledge.
    The team has evolved over the season amid the background of financial uncertainty but one can only ruminate how chapter two will follow chapter one!
    deekay
  • This system seems to be working a dream at the moment. It’s a pity that it was only put work at such a late stage of the season as the results so far appear to suggest that those all important results that should have gone our way earlier in the season would have gone our way.
  • Rather like goldfish people seem to only remember the good recent times.  There are so many variables to balance to find out why we are now looking a lot more incisive than earlier in the season. They were all new to each other at the start of the season is one example of a variable. Might have been a different picture if they'd played together previously before  pre-season. This isn't something that can be given a concrete answer. Oli has been brilliant for us, but now the experts are saying we look better without him....and in the spirit of shortmism that is how it appears. GP is the best person to ask as he's studied it all up close and implemented the idea of a false nine.
    I thought self belief was the missing ingredient myself at the beginning of the season. We beat Sheff Utd away , now second in the table and then went and capitulated at home to Ipswich. That to me said we could beat anybody but also lose those winnable games. With or without our resurgence I think it  has very little to do with Oli's absence. Do I know conclusively? nope I'm like everyone, I don't have any absolutes to give you.
    Wyn
  • Pablo. I’m no expert but we have (rather than do) looked better without him. I definitely don’t want to lose him and i did wonder if it might be that he’s absolutely knackered after that lone role all season with no back up. I think tonight we should stay the same given the last two performances and results and if nothing is happening bring him on. My point was that every team knew how much we depended on Ollie so there was a certain degree of predictability about us so teams set up to stop him. Not his fault. Now we appear to have options about how we can play and another performance tonight like the last two can only be good for Us, the team and also i believe Ollie going forward.
  • The dynamics of the squad have changed from the early season one.
    If Ollie was missing then, we looked flat with no outlet.
    Now we look productive and threatening. Perhaps down to what Routs and to a lesser extent Dyer bring.
    Any League is down to timings and luck through, players form, other teams form, injuries etc....
    We seem to be, as a team, hitting a bit of form. 
    I agree now, that Celina has that bit of space and runners in front willing to go, he can start being extremely effective with his passess.
    But Ollie will bring a plan B if needed during a game, something we haven't had all season.
    I hope I'm right, but GP hasn't had this luxury (or didn't realise he had it) this season, but now he can compete far better.
  • Perhaps we are better suited to more of a Man C type, attacking front line. 
    IE. More agility, fast moving, interchangeable front 3. 
    Absolutely no criticism of OM, he’s been a one man, goal attack for us. 
    Makes you wonder why Dyer & Routledge weren’t untilised earlier, even if Potter was experimenting with his squad. 
    Just goes to show what good pros. they are. 
  • If Ollie gets himself in the gym and puts some power into his legs it will do him the world of good. 
  • Pablo. I’m no expert but we have (rather than do) looked better without him. I definitely don’t want to lose him and i did wonder if it might be that he’s absolutely knackered after that lone role all season with no back up. I think tonight we should stay the same given the last two performances and results and if nothing is happening bring him on. My point was that every team knew how much we depended on Ollie so there was a certain degree of predictability about us so teams set up to stop him. Not his fault. Now we appear to have options about how we can play and another performance tonight like the last two can only be good for Us, the team and also i believe Ollie going forward.
    Mike much as I appreciate we've been very good the past two games, it has helped that in both we scored early goals. The usual fan shortermism now means on the back of two conclusive wins a whole philosophy has arisen that we are better without Oli. Fans aren't the best at having a balanced view, being mostly emotional kneejerk types who praise winning and go on the offensive when we lose.
    Thankfully Colin and myself are more circumspect because there are many reasons why our fortunes have changed recently.
    Luck plays a part. The 4 previous games we lost because we didn't get the rub of the green. The last two games the ball has flown into the net almost as if unaided. Yes we played great football, but that has been apparent from the very beginning of the season, it's just that now we are more experienced with the mode of play and there's no doubt that Dyer and Routledge have been on good form after languishing on the bench for the first half of the season. Our success is more likely down to a team that is now gelling through familiarity and a manager who really knows what they can and can't do. 
    mind you it proves that we can win games without a recognised striker when we need to.
    Wyn
  • 33 minutes isn't an early goal. 

    If it was only now that people were picking up on Ollie being an awkward player to accommodate then you might have a point about kneejerk reactions but some have noticed it all season and Potter changing his system so much in the first half of the season was caused in part by trying to find the right mix of players with Ollie in the side. Hence CBR getting starts for Ollie could play 10, shifting Celina out onto the wing.

    It's not simply two games recently, either. Norwich and City were also excellent performances.

    Ironic that you're trying to characterise people who disagree with you as narrow-minded and having short memories when you get so many basic facts and recent history wrong yourself.
    Arch_Stanton
  • jasper_T said:
    33 minutes isn't an early goal. 

    If it was only now that people were picking up on Ollie being an awkward player to accommodate then you might have a point about kneejerk reactions but some have noticed it all season and Potter changing his system so much in the first half of the season was caused in part by trying to find the right mix of players with Ollie in the side. Hence CBR getting starts for Ollie could play 10, shifting Celina out onto the wing.

    It's not simply two games recently, either. Norwich and City were also excellent performances.

    Ironic that you're trying to characterise people who disagree with you as narrow-minded and having short memories when you get so many basic facts and recent history wrong yourself.
    yep Jasper football fans in general are swayed by one thing...winning. If you lose they gripe, if you win they rejoice. I don't characterise that  but observe it...often from a distance these days.
    This thread exemplifies this perfectly. Had we lost the last two games that would be six on the trot lost and everyone on here would be attacking anyone within reach. This isn't mere speculation. I don't tend to trust the opinions of those that are making bold statements about our striker on the basis of two wins, however stylish those wins were. As for your insinuation that I am calling people narrow minded....well those are your words not mine. 
    and the other part where you say I get basic facts wrong.....then you can point them out to me rather than allude. 
    All about opinions and some feel the need to over react as you have here.  
    Swansballer
  • always help when you take your chances early on, forcing the opposition to change their game plan.

    We've dominated the last 5 or 6 League games, but not taken our chances until the last 2.

    So it's not fair to say we've been better with or without Oli. And he has been flogged to death with the number of minutes he has been asked to play as a lone striker.
    Wyn
  • Pablo. I think the thread was a really interesting one and certainly not raised with any intent to damage Ollie or paint any posters as experts. Most appreciate Ollie and i am definitely in that camp. I think you made some good points about confidence and tonights performance all be it against 9 men certainly went a long way to backing that up. I for one am glad we appear to have players that now have enough confidence and comfort in playing in a couple of different systems if for nothing else than to give Ollie a rest now and again. 31 shots to 3. Magnificent.
    Pablo
  • Yep I'm in the 'Oli in the team camp'. I like seeing a striker in the team. Don't get me wrong, false nine has worked but give me a proper '9' any day
  • When I raised the debate, it was in no means attended to have a go at Ollie. Great to see him score again tonight after missing a very good opportunity earlier. Thought he contributed very well  in an unfamiliar role playing deeper. 
  • It was odd to see the wales on line article today re the projected transfer values of Swans players. I feel like if we absolutely needed to cash in on one of our young players then Ollie would be the choice (projected value 10 million plus). He will be sought after as a goal scoring International, but he could be replaced BOTH from within the squad (see last few games and Garrick) and outside the squad  (invest in another young pacey forward). 
    For me we need to try and keep the others as in Rodon Roberts James Grimes Byers VdH etc we have a really solid core of young talent to build upon.
  • Thought Socks had a great game last night.

    We didn't miss Celina at all as evidenced by the stats and the performance.

    In fact, with Ollie's extra physicality against a notorious team of cloggers, we were probably better off.
    jasper_TWyn
  • Pablo said:
    jasper_T said:
    33 minutes isn't an early goal. 

    If it was only now that people were picking up on Ollie being an awkward player to accommodate then you might have a point about kneejerk reactions but some have noticed it all season and Potter changing his system so much in the first half of the season was caused in part by trying to find the right mix of players with Ollie in the side. Hence CBR getting starts for Ollie could play 10, shifting Celina out onto the wing.

    It's not simply two games recently, either. Norwich and City were also excellent performances.

    Ironic that you're trying to characterise people who disagree with you as narrow-minded and having short memories when you get so many basic facts and recent history wrong yourself.
    yep Jasper football fans in general are swayed by one thing...winning. If you lose they gripe, if you win they rejoice. I don't characterise that  but observe it...often from a distance these days.
    This thread exemplifies this perfectly. Had we lost the last two games that would be six on the trot lost and everyone on here would be attacking anyone within reach. This isn't mere speculation. I don't tend to trust the opinions of those that are making bold statements about our striker on the basis of two wins, however stylish those wins were. As for your insinuation that I am calling people narrow minded....well those are your words not mine. 
    and the other part where you say I get basic facts wrong.....then you can point them out to me rather than allude. 
    All about opinions and some feel the need to over react as you have here.  
    One fact was right at the top of my post. 33 minutes isn't an early goal, as you said we scored. 

    Another in the second paragraph: people have been saying it for a while.

    Another in the third paragraph: it's not two games people are responding to. Response to the Norwich and City performances were very positive, despite defeats that you say would have people "attacking anyone within reach".

    Basic facts you're getting wrong to suit your "everyone is an idiot but me (and Colin)" narrative.
    barrygarythenotrashcougar
  • jasper_T said:
    Pablo said:
    jasper_T said:
    33 minutes isn't an early goal. 

    If it was only now that people were picking up on Ollie being an awkward player to accommodate then you might have a point about kneejerk reactions but some have noticed it all season and Potter changing his system so much in the first half of the season was caused in part by trying to find the right mix of players with Ollie in the side. Hence CBR getting starts for Ollie could play 10, shifting Celina out onto the wing.

    It's not simply two games recently, either. Norwich and City were also excellent performances.

    Ironic that you're trying to characterise people who disagree with you as narrow-minded and having short memories when you get so many basic facts and recent history wrong yourself.
    yep Jasper football fans in general are swayed by one thing...winning. If you lose they gripe, if you win they rejoice. I don't characterise that  but observe it...often from a distance these days.
    This thread exemplifies this perfectly. Had we lost the last two games that would be six on the trot lost and everyone on here would be attacking anyone within reach. This isn't mere speculation. I don't tend to trust the opinions of those that are making bold statements about our striker on the basis of two wins, however stylish those wins were. As for your insinuation that I am calling people narrow minded....well those are your words not mine. 
    and the other part where you say I get basic facts wrong.....then you can point them out to me rather than allude. 
    All about opinions and some feel the need to over react as you have here.  
    One fact was right at the top of my post. 33 minutes isn't an early goal, as you said we scored. 

    Another in the second paragraph: people have been saying it for a while.

    Another in the third paragraph: it's not two games people are responding to. Response to the Norwich and City performances were very positive, despite defeats that you say would have people "attacking anyone within reach".

    Basic facts you're getting wrong to suit your "everyone is an idiot but me (and Colin)" narrative.
    Bit desperate aren't you to justify your bluster? in my book 33 mins counts as an early goal. the rest of your weak explanation you can keep. Might be best to temper your opinions without the dogma
  • edited April 10
    Well done Oli, for silencing your critics with a good display last night. Good discussion that proves that there is no truth in the idea that we are better without him, but also we are not a one man reliant side in any position. I thought we might suffer without Leroy's experience but Leroy might not get in this side now
  • indeed. Oli certainly shut a few people up last night. His place in the team has not affected performances imo. 

    It is just the last 3 games we have started taking chances throughout the team, whereas we werent but still dominating games.
  • Pablo said:
    jasper_T said:
    Pablo said:
    jasper_T said:
    33 minutes isn't an early goal. 

    If it was only now that people were picking up on Ollie being an awkward player to accommodate then you might have a point about kneejerk reactions but some have noticed it all season and Potter changing his system so much in the first half of the season was caused in part by trying to find the right mix of players with Ollie in the side. Hence CBR getting starts for Ollie could play 10, shifting Celina out onto the wing.

    It's not simply two games recently, either. Norwich and City were also excellent performances.

    Ironic that you're trying to characterise people who disagree with you as narrow-minded and having short memories when you get so many basic facts and recent history wrong yourself.
    yep Jasper football fans in general are swayed by one thing...winning. If you lose they gripe, if you win they rejoice. I don't characterise that  but observe it...often from a distance these days.
    This thread exemplifies this perfectly. Had we lost the last two games that would be six on the trot lost and everyone on here would be attacking anyone within reach. This isn't mere speculation. I don't tend to trust the opinions of those that are making bold statements about our striker on the basis of two wins, however stylish those wins were. As for your insinuation that I am calling people narrow minded....well those are your words not mine. 
    and the other part where you say I get basic facts wrong.....then you can point them out to me rather than allude. 
    All about opinions and some feel the need to over react as you have here.  
    One fact was right at the top of my post. 33 minutes isn't an early goal, as you said we scored. 

    Another in the second paragraph: people have been saying it for a while.

    Another in the third paragraph: it's not two games people are responding to. Response to the Norwich and City performances were very positive, despite defeats that you say would have people "attacking anyone within reach".

    Basic facts you're getting wrong to suit your "everyone is an idiot but me (and Colin)" narrative.
    Bit desperate aren't you to justify your bluster? in my book 33 mins counts as an early goal. the rest of your weak explanation you can keep. Might be best to temper your opinions without the dogma
    Fairly sure if you did a straw poll of what football fans perceive as an 'early goal', as an answer 'the 33rd minute' would not fare very well.
    Mark_Jack_Londonenaitch
  • I don't really see much merit in this argument to be honest. It's hard to look beyond James stepping up to a completely different level for why we're playing so well at the moment, whether Oli is playing or not. Even though McBurnie had a poor miss at the near post from Roberts' cross against Stoke I can't imagine any of our other players making the run to get in that position in the first place. 

    Given that our first half performance was probably one of our best of the season , perhaps Celina isn't that important either? To answer my own question, for the sake of avoiding any misunderstanding, then yes he is obviously important, but not indispensable - just like McBurnie. As for James, that's an entirely different story...
  • Clearly Oli is a striker who knows where the goal is. He has a knack of being in the right place at the right time. He is, to use an old fashioned phrase, a poacher. 

    He also works very, very hard off the ball. Defends from the front.

    Do I think he offers much more beyond that? In short, no. I think he’s not particularly technically gifted, he’s very slight and easily bullied by centre backs, and he lacks pace. There have been several games where we needed him to hold the ball up and slow a game down and he’s struggled with it.

    Despite his limitations he’s done very well and on balance I would rather have him in our side than not. But there are two things for sure: we need true competition for him up front, and if we ever somehow got back up he’s nowhere near PL quality, we’d have to replace him. The latter is unlikely granted, but we should try and address the former this summer ideally.
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