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One step forward...

Quick temperature check. I presume everyone on here agrees Potter needed at least one more season in the Championship to develop as a manager and prepare the former U23s for life in the EPL.

Assuming SC delivers the goods this season, would you
(a) be happy for us to get promoted this coming season and damn the torpedoes
(b) prefer to consolidate for one more season so we can mount a stronger challenge in 2021
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Comments

  • If we're good enough to get promoted we should get promoted right away. This season no different from last season.
  • B - Consolidate.
    We have quite a few youngsters in the team and as we all know the PL is a different kettle of fish. It could get very tough indeed. Naturally, I understand the lure of the PL but I'd rather we have a more confident squad with another season in the Championship under our belt first. 
  • Irrespective of sports science and analytics, football at times can be totally unpredictable and if by chance Cooper has managed to steer the club to promotion, of course all fans will accept it with open arms.

    No doubt he won't admit it, deep down Graham Potter knows himself that we missed a golden opportunity to get in the P/Offs last season. Consolidation can be masked as huge disappointment by some in the same thought process as others would say that if Dan James had been given games in the PL, we could possibly be still in that competition.
  • Heart says consolidate and push season after, head says push now. Only reason for that is if we have a good season and possibly a good cup run somewhere, our youngsters will turn the heads of other clubs and possibly SC. This will give Americans $$ in their eyes. Flash sale and we are back to square 1. Push now, get PL money in and hopefully TB will pursued the Yankee doodles that SC will need cash to sustain and consolidate in the PL. once  they see the extra money coming in through bigger lucrative deals they will see sense 
  • edited July 10
    It will only get tougher with tighter and tighter budgets. We need to aim for promotion why would you do anything else. Why would we be able to consolidate and mount a stronger challenge?

    It more likely next year some of our more talented u23 will want to transfer, and it’s likely the academy cupboard might be bare for a season or two.

    If we consolidate, whatever that exactly means, I believe we will be weaker in 20/21. Without the dynamism of pushing for promotion teams tend to slip down the table towards the trapdoor.

    So definite A.
    MikeTasmania
  • I don't think you can ever choose when you get promoted - if you're good enough, you deserve it. 

    That said it's a moot point because the squad as it stands right now has more chance of heading the other direction. 
  • Is there not a better chance of the owners giving up on our club and selling - by our remaining in the championship rather than getting promoted ?
  • I doubt it - their only chance of recovering their investment, let along making a profit on it, is for us to go back up. It would be financial madness for them to sell their shares while we are in the second tier.
  • edited July 10
    Far more likely to sell if promoted as the gain will be there to take, always more likely than accepting a loss.
  • Just like last year there will be no money spent on the squad to bolster the squad & back up the younger players being brought through from the u23's, so we will fall short at best
  • BigG said:
    Just like last year there will be no money spent on the squad to bolster the squad & back up the younger players being brought through from the u23's, so we will fall short at best
    We didn't fall short last season because players were brought through from the u23s. Or because there was "no money spent on the squad" (we spent £7m plus a loan player). Ridiculous suggestions.
    Cadleigh
  • 1 senior striker for majority of the season
    truth hurts but we failed to achieve play offs as the manager was not backed up at all, again cast your memory back to DJ & the Leeds fiasco...he was being sold for a pittance right out from under the managers nose
    that is ridiculous!
  • Grimes at left back and CBR as the only striking option to Ollie??
  • Cadleigh said:
    I doubt it - their only chance of recovering their investment, let along making a profit on it, is for us to go back up. It would be financial madness for them to sell their shares while we are in the second tier.
    Sometimes investors decide to cut and run when they realise they are not going to make as much on their investment as they had anticipated. As you say Cadleigh, if they sell , they will make a huge loss on the deal if we are still in the Championship. However, that loss is spread between 28 wealthy people at the last count and I would say they can probably take the loss. I don't agree it is financial madness to do that.
    The only return they are currently making, as far as I am aware, is that they are providing short term loans to the club to get them over cash flow issues. They are only charging standard commercial rates of interest but you would still expect them to be making a small profit on that. Complete guess here - profit of 0.5% on average £10M loan = £50k per annum ?? That's not enough of an annual return to keep them on board. If it was 1% on £20m, that would still only be £200k per annum. And, as the deficit reduces, our cash flow should improve and we will then need fewer/smaller loans, so the returns for loaning money will reduce for them.
    I still think they will have sold up by Summer 2020.
    GingergitColin_swansea
  • we go for it. we try and win every game. 

    if it gets us promotion, brilliant. It will probably mean we can keep more of the gems we have, because of the loot we get, and they'll more likely want to stay.

    If we dont, then the fans, players, management and owners should not be disappointed. and we go again the next.

    It'll mean we'll probably have to loose more of our best players. but that's the reality of how we are as a club in the Championship.
  • 1 The investors haven’t lost a penny yet, apart from the interest they could potentially have made from putting their cash into an ISA instead. And if they hang tight and we get promoted, there’s still every chance they’ll get their investment back and more. The only way they lose is if they sell for less than it cost them to buy. But for them to get their money back, we have to get promoted some time. That’s why it makes no sense for them to starve the club of money - or to see it plummet down the leagues due to debt.

    2 I wasn’t suggesting we should throw the opportunity to get promoted - merely asking how other posters would feel about a one-season manager leading a very young team into the bear pit of the EPL
    Pablo
  • Rich people don’t stay rich very long if they are willing to accept losses. They will wait and hope we get promoted.
    Pablo
  • Jackareme said:
    Grimes at left back and CBR as the only striking option to Ollie??
    None of that was necessary. Potter's hands were tied by the Routledge (and to a lesser extent Dyer) contract stuff, we certainly didn't need to buy a player to do Wayne's job from December on.

    Grimes at left back was similarly pointless as we had Naughton and Connor perfectly comfortable and more-suited to the fullback roles on either side. Olsson wasn't injured until early December, although he was struggling with issues before then.

    Potter's constant tinkering made us look lighter than we actually were. After the New Year when the system and selections settled down we were far from short of numbers with a terrific record for winning games and outplaying sides. Most of Potter's signings couldn't get into the team. And the next one he wanted to make (£7m Ryan Woods) wouldn't have displaced Grimes either. He could have been backed with £10m and I don't think we'd have picked up any more points. There weren't many going begging from January on. 

    We fell short because of poor set piece defending (the most goals conceded from set pieces in the league, when from open play we had one of the best defensive records) caused mainly by a shoddy choice of goalkeeper (no u23 there, although Benda might well have been a better option), and taking too long to arrive at a settled, regular 11 (didn't pick an unchanged lineup until mid-December, the last team in the division to do so).
    Cadleigh
  • Cadleigh said:
    1 The investors haven’t lost a penny yet, apart from the interest they could potentially have made from putting their cash into an ISA instead. And if they hang tight and we get promoted, there’s still every chance they’ll get their investment back and more. The only way they lose is if they sell for less than it cost them to buy. But for them to get their money back, we have to get promoted some time. That’s why it makes no sense for them to starve the club of money - or to see it plummet down the leagues due to debt.

    2 I wasn’t suggesting we should throw the opportunity to get promoted - merely asking how other posters would feel about a one-season manager leading a very young team into the bear pit of the EPL
    Of course they've lost money, both liquid and potential. They gave £60m to our old owners for shares that are now worth a fraction of that. And getting promoted won't magically bring back the tens of millions the company has lost in the meantime. Debts have increased, assets have had to be sold. 
  • I don’t think that’s quite right, Jasper. If they bought their shares for £70m you are right to say their holdings are not worth anything like that right now. But if they hold on to them until (God willing) we get promoted back to the EPL there is every chance their shares will revert back to their former value and more. So no losses until/unless they sell. 

    The value of shares to some extent reflects the value of the players on our books, so you are right to say they won’t recover their old value overnight, but I am sure that within a season of being back in the EPL they will be back to their old value. And I don’t think we do have significant debts, that’s the whole point of the last year of austerity
  • Cadleigh said:
    I don’t think that’s quite right, Jasper. If they bought their shares for £70m you are right to say their holdings are not worth anything like that right now. But if they hold on to them until (God willing) we get promoted back to the EPL there is every chance their shares will revert back to their former value and more. So no losses until/unless they sell. 

    The value of shares to some extent reflects the value of the players on our books, so you are right to say they won’t recover their old value overnight, but I am sure that within a season of being back in the EPL they will be back to their old value. And I don’t think we do have significant debts, that’s the whole point of the last year of austerity
    the bottom line is, how long are they prepared to wait to get a return on the £70M it cost to buy the club. That is, if they paid that much for the Swans. Are the owners going to hang around until after the last parachute payment has been paid if we miss out on promotion in the next two seasons?

    Some talk about promotion as if it were so easy to achieve and in the same vein think that we can easily go better than what we achieved last season. In theory yes, but in practice, and with a new, inexperienced manager, not so easy.
    enaitch
  • Agree 100%. On the latter point optimists on here feel we will be strong contenders for promotion if we hang on to our remaining first team, make one or two judicious appointments and stop giving soft goals from set pieces. I’d hope so, but as you say we have a new manager with less experience, Wayne and Nathan are ageing, we still haven’t replaced Leon with a DM capable of breaking up counter-attacks and there are plenty of other teams with at least as much grounds for optimism this coming season.

    As far as the shareholders are concerned, I think Kaplan, Levine and Berg at least have deep pockets and will be happy to be patient for a few seasons more. The rest maybe not so much but we just don’t know how much each is in for.

    it’s interesting that the turnaround they have achieved at DC United has been based on owning their own stadium, ramping up sponsorship income and developing quality training facilities. 
  • jasper_T said:
    Jackareme said:
    Grimes at left back and CBR as the only striking option to Ollie??
    None of that was necessary. Potter's hands were tied by the Routledge (and to a lesser extent Dyer) contract stuff, we certainly didn't need to buy a player to do Wayne's job from December on.

    Grimes at left back was similarly pointless as we had Naughton and Connor perfectly comfortable and more-suited to the fullback roles on either side. Olsson wasn't injured until early December, although he was struggling with issues before then.

    Potter's constant tinkering made us look lighter than we actually were. After the New Year when the system and selections settled down we were far from short of numbers with a terrific record for winning games and outplaying sides. Most of Potter's signings couldn't get into the team. And the next one he wanted to make (£7m Ryan Woods) wouldn't have displaced Grimes either. He could have been backed with £10m and I don't think we'd have picked up any more points. There weren't many going begging from January on. 

    We fell short because of poor set piece defending (the most goals conceded from set pieces in the league, when from open play we had one of the best defensive records) caused mainly by a shoddy choice of goalkeeper (no u23 there, although Benda might well have been a better option), and taking too long to arrive at a settled, regular 11 (didn't pick an unchanged lineup until mid-December, the last team in the division to do so).
    we'll soon see if it was the keepers at fault, or the defensive tactics employed.

    Margetson has already stated he has seen the issues, and is addressing them. He also said he was impressed by the different qualities the keepers have.

    We may not think they are the best. And they may not be the best. But I still do not believe that they were 100% to blame.

    And we will soon see how a keeper and defensive coach, which is what Martyn is, can do. Especially having huge experience of working under Big Sam. And say what you want about Allardici, no one can deny, he always had a very organised and tactically astute defence.

    But I find it quite surprising that you are happy to blame Potter for the selection and recruitment mistakes he made, but nothing about the tactical holes that were obviously there. And continued throughout the season, no matter which keeper was there. And who could not be improved or find a tactical solution to help the shortcomings (if there were any). I saw no tactical changes.

  • as for have the owners lost money. well, yes they have.

    they have lost money on paper. The value of their shareholding has crashed.

    why is that important. Well, it potentially increases interest rates for any borrowings they may want/need to make.

    And unless they get back to the Premier League before they decide to sell, then they will make big, big losses on their investment.
  • If we were lucky enough to get promoted, we have to take it, we may not be good enough to compete in the PL but I don't mind us being a yo-yo club for a few seasons, WBA do it, so do Norwich, why not us?
    Cadleigh
  • jollyboy said:
    If we were lucky enough to get promoted, we have to take it, we may not be good enough to compete in the PL but I don't mind us being a yo-yo club for a few seasons, WBA do it, so do Norwich, why not us?
    And like it or not, 2 clubs that are bigger than us! We get back to old way of playing and recruitment done properly, spending wisely. I am convinced we will again rise to the Premier League again.
  • jollyboy said:
    If we were lucky enough to get promoted, we have to take it, we may not be good enough to compete in the PL but I don't mind us being a yo-yo club for a few seasons, WBA do it, so do Norwich, why not us?
    And like it or not, 2 clubs that are bigger than us! We get back to old way of playing and recruitment done properly, spending wisely. I am convinced we will again rise to the Premier League again.
    I agree but where I think it went wrong was panic set in and we tried to stay in the PL at all costs, we would have been better accepting our fate and not spend big on Ayew, IMO, Bony would have been fine if he hadn't got injured (its part and parcel of being a footballer)
  • It would have been better not accepting our fate(!) and spending wisely in accordance with a set of values.
  • It would have been better not accepting our fate(!) and spending wisely in accordance with a set of values.
    hindsight is a wonderful thing

  • edited July 11
    Not hindsight, in which way are these signing suitable for us as a team. Only a moron would think so.....or defend it.
    Jackareme
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