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  • Can’t they take Andre Ayew!
  • They can do what they like with their money, but can’t take it from our coffers, that’s embezzlement, I’d rather be sustainable that let them load us with debt anyway
  • My worry is they will be back if we get promoted.
  • as long as they don’t interfere with Trevor Birch to much they are welcome back
  • It’s only embezzlement if they get caught ....
  • Its simple. They view us has a fund, remember there are over 30 shareholders in the fund each looking for a return. so far they are doing just that.  This season over £30 million from sold players plus £60 million parachute payments. Not bad
  • BigOak - are you accusing the shareholders of embezzlement?
  • Cadleigh said:
    BigOak - are you accusing the shareholders of embezzlement?
    Exactly and Phil Sumbler said it again at the meeting in the Landore club last week, there is no evidence of any money being taken out, the Trust rep sees the monthly management accounts and any missing money would stand out like a sore thumb.
    There are ways of getting a return and that is by paying a dividend to all the shareholders including the Trust but so far, no dividend has been paid for the last 5 years.

  • enaitch said:
    It’s only embezzlement if they get caught ....
    Of course this is correct but as said above, Phil Sumbler said it again at the meeting in the Landore club last week, there is no evidence of any money being taken out, the Trust rep sees the monthly management accounts and any missing money would stand out like a sore thumb.
    If any of the conspiracists has any evidence whatsoever, why not get in touch with the inland revenue, the PL and FA big wigs, the fraud office or any body you may think would be interested, you'd be wasting you're time on a myth.
    Mark_Jack_London
  • There's more than one way to skin a cat, very difficult to trace money passed through umpteen pseudo legitimate accounts. Why demand NDAs unless you have something to hide. Total lack of transparency does not look good really.
    bigoakColinNorthampton
  • No, What they are doing is perfectly legal. 
  • Malaga said:
    There's more than one way to skin a cat, very difficult to trace money passed through umpteen pseudo legitimate accounts. Why demand NDAs unless you have something to hide. Total lack of transparency does not look good really.
    Untrue and you have absolutely no evidence, why demand? because this information is confidential. I don't agree that a director should have to sign an NDA but its all legal and above board. Are you accusing them of embezzlement ? They would do time for that. TPhil Sumbler says that no money is being taken out, the Trust rep says there is no money being taken out but your back of a fag packet maths says there is. Report your findings to the authorities.
  • bigoak said:
    No, What they are doing is perfectly legal. 
    Nope, taking money out of one business and putting it into another is not legal. It’s money laundering. 

    It also devalues the club which again is bot in their interest as they want to get rid of it when it’s in the black. Stop scaremongering for gods sake
  • Jacktar said:
    Malaga said:
    There's more than one way to skin a cat, very difficult to trace money passed through umpteen pseudo legitimate accounts. Why demand NDAs unless you have something to hide. Total lack of transparency does not look good really.
    Untrue and you have absolutely no evidence, why demand? because this information is confidential. I don't agree that a director should have to sign an NDA but its all legal and above board. Are you accusing them of embezzlement ? They would do time for that. TPhil Sumbler says that no money is being taken out, the Trust rep says there is no money being taken out but your back of a fag packet maths says there is. Report your findings to the authorities.


    I'm not accusing anyone of anything,  just saying that there are many ways to move funds from one place to another and make it difficult to track. There is certainly no trust being built here at all. Maybe the fit and proper persons test could be made a tad more rigorous :smiley:
    enaitch
  • Jacktar said:
    Cadleigh said:
    BigOak - are you accusing the shareholders of embezzlement?
    Exactly and Phil Sumbler said it again at the meeting in the Landore club last week, there is no evidence of any money being taken out, the Trust rep sees the monthly management accounts and any missing money would stand out like a sore thumb.
    There are ways of getting a return and that is by paying a dividend to all the shareholders including the Trust but so far, no dividend has been paid for the last 5 years.
    Please stop misrepresenting the Trust's words.

    They have been quite clear - they THINK nothing untoward is going on, but until they get to see the full accounts with no NDA they cannot unequivocally confirm that is the case. 

    Until then, you and the other little Hitlers who want to stop people asking questions need to get back in their box. 

    There will always be suspicion for as long as Kaplan and Levien want to operate without full transparency.
  • Like Phillip has said who are these non playing staff our astronomical wage bill is going too? That’s what I’d like to know.
  • Jacktar said:
    Cadleigh said:
    BigOak - are you accusing the shareholders of embezzlement?
    Exactly and Phil Sumbler said it again at the meeting in the Landore club last week, there is no evidence of any money being taken out, the Trust rep sees the monthly management accounts and any missing money would stand out like a sore thumb.
    There are ways of getting a return and that is by paying a dividend to all the shareholders including the Trust but so far, no dividend has been paid for the last 5 years.
    Please stop misrepresenting the Trust's words.

    They have been quite clear - they THINK nothing untoward is going on, but until they get to see the full accounts with no NDA they cannot unequivocally confirm that is the case. 

    Until then, you and the other little Hitlers who want to stop people asking questions need to get back in their box. 

    There will always be suspicion for as long as Kaplan and Levien want to operate without full transparency.
    Asking questions is one thing making accusations without any evidence is another thing entirely.

    I am quite sure the investors do want a return on their investment and I am also quite sure Kaplan and Levien have no desire to spend time locked up, so why would they go down the embezzlement route as some on here seem convinced is happening.

    What I do know is we have owners who promised the next level and have not been able to deliver this and so what, how many football club owners have failed to deliver on their promises (we all need to move on from that statement)

    I also think they didn't really factor in relegation (remember this is not an issue in the US) and expected to be able to run the club without investment and take big dividends from the premier league cash and we all know how that worked out.

    I really think they are attempting to sort out the mess relegation has caused and the appointment of Trevor Birch is the best move they have made to this end.

    I suppose time will tell the whole story but overall I think they made an investment that has not worked out and some poor decisions (Excluding the trust, Bob Bradley, keeping Huw Jenkins, pearlman etc..) which have exacerbated the situation.

    To use your terminology are not the people making accusation without any evidence also little hitlers who need to get back in their box?
  • Jacktar said:
    Cadleigh said:
    BigOak - are you accusing the shareholders of embezzlement?
    Exactly and Phil Sumbler said it again at the meeting in the Landore club last week, there is no evidence of any money being taken out, the Trust rep sees the monthly management accounts and any missing money would stand out like a sore thumb.
    There are ways of getting a return and that is by paying a dividend to all the shareholders including the Trust but so far, no dividend has been paid for the last 5 years.
    Please stop misrepresenting the Trust's words.

    They have been quite clear - they THINK nothing untoward is going on, but until they get to see the full accounts with no NDA they cannot unequivocally confirm that is the case. 

    Until then, you and the other little Hitlers who want to stop people asking questions need to get back in their box. 

    There will always be suspicion for as long as Kaplan and Levien want to operate without full transparency.
    Bit harsh there Gary. BigOak made a very bold statement without offering any evidence. I asked a question in return. Not sure how that makes me Hitler? 
  • They're always going to be more eager to invest in a company they own 100% than one they own 70-odd% of and have to share any profits out among people that are suing them. It's also a safer investment as the club franchise is backed by the league and there's no potential for massive and immediate drops in revenue from poor performance.
  • The headline figure in terms of debt for this season was announced as £30mil. That was the basis from which I was working on. Since then, now the amount has been covered by the transfer funds from Graham Potter’s move to Brighton, Dan James to ManU, OMcB to Sheffield United and JA to Crystal Palace, the goalposts have been moved a somewhat. Embezzlement or otherwise this about turn on the amount needed to cover the debt sounds off to me and has made me feel somewhat uneasy as to the motives of the owners. Their track record with regards to the financial sides of things meant that alarm bells started ringing the moment it was announced that we weren’t out of the woods yet debt wise.
    garythenotrashcougarenaitch
  • I'd be very careful about throwing wild accusation around. it not only opens the person making them, but also this Forum/website to a lawsuit.

    I also dont think Birch would be there if there was any hint of these unsubstantiated accusations were going on. He'd not risk his footballing credibility or his livelihood as an accountant if there was any money laundering or fraud involved. And he would know the ins and outs of the moneys coming in and out of the club.

    As for the Americans sticking around - I see 3 possibilities.

    1. we get promotion. they look to get a quick exit and their money back.
    2. we get promotion, and they think they think they can make a better fist of it and make money they thought they were going to last time around.
    3. The Trust take them to Court. They look at the numbers and try and sell up and get out of Dodge asap, if the losses they make are less than it would cost them to settle the Trust's claim. Only flaws there would be is either the Trust gets the court to block the sale (not sure if that is even possible); or how they would attract a new investor with that hanging case over them - who would be liable / what disruption would it cause to the new owners' plans?

  • What the emergence of Birch and the appointment of a competent Head of Recruitment has done is shine a spotlight on  how deficient we were in off the field leadership during the last 4 years of our Premier League Journey.
    If only Huw had recognised that trying to run the club and cash in his chips at the same time was a huge conflict, and that he was majorly out of his depth - I am convinced that we could have BOTH developed and consolidated as a club, on a "leaner" budget, while Huw achieved his windfall.
    There was no need for his vanity and subterfuge that ultimately proved to be our undoing.
    SeaJack
  • Cadleigh said:
    Jacktar said:
    Cadleigh said:
    BigOak - are you accusing the shareholders of embezzlement?
    Exactly and Phil Sumbler said it again at the meeting in the Landore club last week, there is no evidence of any money being taken out, the Trust rep sees the monthly management accounts and any missing money would stand out like a sore thumb.
    There are ways of getting a return and that is by paying a dividend to all the shareholders including the Trust but so far, no dividend has been paid for the last 5 years.
    Please stop misrepresenting the Trust's words.

    They have been quite clear - they THINK nothing untoward is going on, but until they get to see the full accounts with no NDA they cannot unequivocally confirm that is the case. 

    Until then, you and the other little Hitlers who want to stop people asking questions need to get back in their box. 

    There will always be suspicion for as long as Kaplan and Levien want to operate without full transparency.
    Bit harsh there Gary. BigOak made a very bold statement without offering any evidence. I asked a question in return. Not sure how that makes me Hitler? 
    @Cadleigh

    Ok, perhaps my choice of moniker was a little harsh but I stand by my point.

    What exactly did Big Oak say that warranted a ton of bricks?

    "There are over 30 shareholders in the fund each looking for a return."

    Not much to argue with there.

    "so far they are doing just that."

    That could be read in a number of ways without being taken as a suggestion they're siphoning money off.

    "This season over £30 million from sold players plus £60 million parachute payments"

    Factually correct on the player sales aspect, the parachute payments bit is wrong, it's about half that unless of course it's a very clumsy way of adding together this year and last year in which case he's about £10m short. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League_parachute_and_solidarity_payments

    So, from where I'm standing not a lot wrong there to be honest. Certainly not worth the kind of slapdown and suppression of debate around it that you and others seem to be heading up.

    As I posted the other day, no one on here really knows exactly what is going on, but shutting down debate and stopping people asking questions of what is not a very transparent operation is certainly not the way to go.  
    bigoak
  • Jacktar said:
    Cadleigh said:
    BigOak - are you accusing the shareholders of embezzlement?
    Exactly and Phil Sumbler said it again at the meeting in the Landore club last week, there is no evidence of any money being taken out, the Trust rep sees the monthly management accounts and any missing money would stand out like a sore thumb.
    There are ways of getting a return and that is by paying a dividend to all the shareholders including the Trust but so far, no dividend has been paid for the last 5 years.
    Please stop misrepresenting the Trust's words.

    They have been quite clear - they THINK nothing untoward is going on, but until they get to see the full accounts with no NDA they cannot unequivocally confirm that is the case. 

    Until then, you and the other little Hitlers who want to stop people asking questions need to get back in their box. 

    There will always be suspicion for as long as Kaplan and Levien want to operate without full transparency.
    of course there'll be suspicion, but that doesn't mean anything untoward is going on, was you at the meeting last week? I was.
    Finance, by its very nature has to stay confidential, I'm not siding with Kaplan or Levien but they have asked for the Trust to sign an NDA so that no information is leaked, the Trust have said no, it won't sign so there's an impasse.
    However, I have said my point over and over again that to move money out in a fashion that some are suggesting is embezzlement and whoever does that will spend time in the slammer, your conspiracies are guess work, at best.
    If you have any evidence then why not call in the fraud squad, PL/FA, Inland Revenue or anyone at FFP, they'd be happy to listen.

  • Jacktar said:
    Cadleigh said:
    BigOak - are you accusing the shareholders of embezzlement?
    Exactly and Phil Sumbler said it again at the meeting in the Landore club last week, there is no evidence of any money being taken out, the Trust rep sees the monthly management accounts and any missing money would stand out like a sore thumb.
    There are ways of getting a return and that is by paying a dividend to all the shareholders including the Trust but so far, no dividend has been paid for the last 5 years.
    Please stop misrepresenting the Trust's words.

    They have been quite clear - they THINK nothing untoward is going on, but until they get to see the full accounts with no NDA they cannot unequivocally confirm that is the case. 

    Until then, you and the other little Hitlers who want to stop people asking questions need to get back in their box. 

    There will always be suspicion for as long as Kaplan and Levien want to operate without full transparency.
    Asking questions is one thing making accusations without any evidence is another thing entirely.

    I am quite sure the investors do want a return on their investment and I am also quite sure Kaplan and Levien have no desire to spend time locked up, so why would they go down the embezzlement route as some on here seem convinced is happening.

    What I do know is we have owners who promised the next level and have not been able to deliver this and so what, how many football club owners have failed to deliver on their promises (we all need to move on from that statement)

    I also think they didn't really factor in relegation (remember this is not an issue in the US) and expected to be able to run the club without investment and take big dividends from the premier league cash and we all know how that worked out.

    I really think they are attempting to sort out the mess relegation has caused and the appointment of Trevor Birch is the best move they have made to this end.

    I suppose time will tell the whole story but overall I think they made an investment that has not worked out and some poor decisions (Excluding the trust, Bob Bradley, keeping Huw Jenkins, pearlman etc..) which have exacerbated the situation.

    To use your terminology are not the people making accusation without any evidence also little hitlers who need to get back in their box?
    Well said, like you, I'm also a realist and have never been called a little Hitler just to score a point
  • I’m sure I read somewhere that one of the 28 investors was jailed for embezzlement not so long ago by the FBI 
  • Jacktar said:
    Jacktar said:
    Cadleigh said:
    BigOak - are you accusing the shareholders of embezzlement?
    Exactly and Phil Sumbler said it again at the meeting in the Landore club last week, there is no evidence of any money being taken out, the Trust rep sees the monthly management accounts and any missing money would stand out like a sore thumb.
    There are ways of getting a return and that is by paying a dividend to all the shareholders including the Trust but so far, no dividend has been paid for the last 5 years.
    Please stop misrepresenting the Trust's words.

    They have been quite clear - they THINK nothing untoward is going on, but until they get to see the full accounts with no NDA they cannot unequivocally confirm that is the case. 

    Until then, you and the other little Hitlers who want to stop people asking questions need to get back in their box. 

    There will always be suspicion for as long as Kaplan and Levien want to operate without full transparency.
    of course there'll be suspicion, but that doesn't mean anything untoward is going on, was you at the meeting last week? I was.
    Finance, by its very nature has to stay confidential, I'm not siding with Kaplan or Levien but they have asked for the Trust to sign an NDA so that no information is leaked, the Trust have said no, it won't sign so there's an impasse.
    However, I have said my point over and over again that to move money out in a fashion that some are suggesting is embezzlement and whoever does that will spend time in the slammer, your conspiracies are guess work, at best.
    If you have any evidence then why not call in the fraud squad, PL/FA, Inland Revenue or anyone at FFP, they'd be happy to listen.
    Yes I was at the meeting thanks Jacktar, I posted a detailed summary of the key points for everyone on this forum who wasn't able to attend. In case you missed that. So I know exactly what was said, and you are choosing to omit the significant caveat that the Trust have always added when talking about what they can make out from the management accounts. Only you will know why you keep leaving that very crucial caveat off when quoting them. 

    The facts remain:

    - You have no more evidence it isn't going on, than I have evidence to prove that it is.

    - The owners continue to deny the Trust Director access to the full, detailed accounts without signing an NDA first. That behaviour is, if we're being generous, extremely odd. At worst, it is opaque, dishonest and the actions of people who have plenty to hide.

    So, sorry, but I will continue to call it out every single time I see it from you and others because it is a fairly blatant attempt to shut people down who retain a healthy suspicion of what is going on. It is healthy to continue to ask questions of incompetent owners who have ruined the club over the course of their 3 year tenure.
  • SeaJack said:
    The headline figure in terms of debt for this season was announced as £30mil. That was the basis from which I was working on. Since then, now the amount has been covered by the transfer funds from Graham Potter’s move to Brighton, Dan James to ManU, OMcB to Sheffield United and JA to Crystal Palace, the goalposts have been moved a somewhat. Embezzlement or otherwise this about turn on the amount needed to cover the debt sounds off to me and has made me feel somewhat uneasy as to the motives of the owners. Their track record with regards to the financial sides of things meant that alarm bells started ringing the moment it was announced that we weren’t out of the woods yet debt wise.
    Others (eg Martyn) have covered this pretty well in the past on other threads, but if I understand it correctly:
    - In our last season in the Premier League our income was £126m and our expenditure was £130m (from the published accounts).
    - Last season our income fell by £60m AFTER the parachute payment was factored in (Pearlman's statement, 9 February 2019). This is because our income from TV money in the season we were relegated alone came to £104m (according to the accounts for 2017-18), but the total TV package shared between all 72 EFL clubs is just £90m.
    - Player sales covered about half of that £60m deficit through one-off transfer fees and ongoing savings in wages (according to Pearlman's statement).
    - What we don't know (and won't know until the next set of accounts are published next spring) is what happened to our total expenditure last season. Did we make other savings outside of player sales that helped reduce the deficit? Jenkins took a 50% wagecut by all accounts, perhaps other senior staff did too? Maybe some of our players did have relegation clauses in their contracts? It's all very well to say there was a £30m gap between our income in 2017-18 and our income in 2018-19 after factoring in player sales, parachute payments etc, but that's meaningless if you don't know what our outgoings were. Maybe the actual gap was never as much as £30m. Then again, we had a load of historic transfer fees that fell due last season, according to Pearlman, so maybe it was that bad.
    - If we ended the season with a loss, presumably at least some of that has ended up as debt which will need to be repaid, so we can't simply shrug and write that off. The black hole rolls over to the current season, however big or small it may be.
    - This season, in addition to the black hole, we need to find another £8m in income (or savings, or both) because the parachute payment falls by that amount. Next season, if we are still in the Championship, it goes down by another £19m. So I was disappointed when Birch said we are not out of the woods yet, financially speaking, but on reflection it is not at all surprising and in no way says to me anything odd is happening.

  • In my post I did not and wouldn’t entertain calling it embezzlement as there is nothing to evidence this. What I do question is the headline figure of £30mil that was put out there, (by Pearlman I believe) a debt which has now suddenly increased in sync with the new amount of revenue that has arrived at the club. That is what makes me feel uneasy. Thankfully I am seeing the green shoots of recovery with the off field/on field matters so much so that my feeling is we have a great season ahead. However the uneasiness still gnaws at me a little and the reason for this is down to the club putting out that statement in the first place. It would be a good idea for the fans and the Trust to be put in the picture with regards to this seeming increase in the debt that was suddenly announced in so many words not so long ago.
  • If that is the sum of your evidence Gary it is pretty flimsy! Wouldn't want to be your libel lawyer defending you on that evidence!
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