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Match Discussion: Derby County v Swans - Championship 2019/20

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  • edited August 10
    0-0 away to Derby was a very good result. I think bringing so many new players in, and old ones coming back had a bit of a negative effect, but we've still managed to get a result. They will bed in soon enough and we should improve as the games go on. 

    I managed to catch the last 20 minutes, where we were being attacked quite heavily, but were still managing to get some of our own attacks going - our finishing wasn't looking strong though. Also I noticed that Woodman was kicking long every time he had a goal kick. Were we playing this way for much of the game, or was it a change of tactic, to try and and get something from the game?

    It was good to see a different side to Cooper, in his post match interview he really looked disappointed that we didn't get the win - he was even expecting we'd win it. 

    I'm always happy to get a draw away, with Woodman's excellent save we managed to get a result. Pity Cardiff won though.
  • rob_h said:

    Also I noticed that Woodman was kicking long every time he had a goal kick. Were we playing this way for much of the game, or was it a change of tactic, to try and and get something from the game?

    It wasn't just the goalie, the defenders also gave up playing out of defense in the last 15-20 minutes. We were just losing it every time in midfield and inviting pressure again. Defenders seemed to have had enough of this and just booted long.
    rob_hJackareme
  • barry said:
    rob_h said:

    Also I noticed that Woodman was kicking long every time he had a goal kick. Were we playing this way for much of the game, or was it a change of tactic, to try and and get something from the game?

    It wasn't just the goalie, the defenders also gave up playing out of defense in the last 15-20 minutes. We were just losing it every time in midfield and inviting pressure again. Defenders seemed to have had enough of this and just booted long.

    It looked like it had been decided to play that way, because for every goal kick, the players were all running up field ready to get on the long ball from Woodman. 
  • its how you get a hard earned point away from home. All in favour of keep ball but sometimes you have to play ugly. Bring it on.
  • Daitumble said:
    its how you get a hard earned point away from home. All in favour of keep ball but sometimes you have to play ugly. Bring it on.
    Although I'm not a fan of the hoof ball, if our usual style of playing is failing badly if the other team has worked us out, having a plan b, c and d is the way to go.
  • We brought the tall surridge on and woodman hit long balls up to him but we also tried playing it short but derby had sussed us out by then. They had men on Rodon, vdh and the full backs. Our problem was, Dhanda and celina couldn't hold onto the ball and Fulton looked knackered. 
    rob_hMalaga
  • @barry is correct with his assessment - and this is what we debated in the week. When we kick it long it comes straight back Quickly.. Some great defensive performances Rodon Woodman Fulton and Grimes amongst the heroes
    barry
  • By playing the ball long, we just put ourselves under more pressure. We didnt play well, showed lots of character but not enough quality.

    We got a point and a clean sheet, if you cant win, dont lose, so we move on to Tuesday.
  • I think this could be a work in progress plan of playing, by SC. 
    I thought the same after watching the Hull game. We didn’t play the same possession game, we’ve been used to under Potter. 
    Less triangular passing, and more 20 - 30yrd passes. 
    Evolution not revolution, would probably sum it up, as every manager has his own views, and style of play. 
    A point away against last year’s playoff finalist, can’t be so bad, whichever way you achieve it.
    So Cooper and his staff, must be doing something right. 
  • edited August 11
    Stats from the game, Derby had the most shots! We were the same on target. The only stat we won was the fouls, bad ref.
  • edited August 11
    41% possession and 73% pass completion are unacceptable from a club that prides itself on a possession based passing game. The long ball game we deterioated into was unacceptable and  shows why thumping the ball long (it comes back quickly) rather than choosng your pass, should be consigned to the bin.

    We struggled because we were unable to find the right quality especially in the final third. We should have won that match. Having said that we keep a clean sheet despite the best efforts of the ref, Woodman was excellent all day and first class penalty save.

    SC needs to find theblend, We need the new players to get game time, but we need to be careful and use our home games more for full debuts.

    Lets get a team who can play the right style and add gradually
  • 41% possession and 73% pass completion are unacceptable from a club that prides itself on a possession based passing game. The long ball game we deterioated into was unacceptable and  shows why thumping the ball long (it comes back quickly) rather than choosng your pass, should be consigned to the bin.

    We struggled because we were unable to find the right quality especially in the final third. We should have won that match. Having said that we keep a clean sheet despite the best efforts of the ref, Woodman was excellent all day and first class penalty save.

    SC needs to find theblend, We need the new players to get game time, but we need to be careful and use our home games more for full debuts.

    Lets get a team who can play the right style and add gradually
    We need to be able to adapt to circumstances and that means if there is a high press we try and go beyond it where the space is. Man City are currently the masters of adapting and we are still learning. For me it’s not one size fits all
  • I only saw the last 20 minutes, but Derby were looking the better team and we just kept hoofing the ball up. Were we playing much better before this this? Did the hoof ball tactic make us even worse or not? We weren't playing much possession football at the end of the game when I got to watch it.

    Woodman could only get the ball not far into the Derby half, if we were going to go for long ball, wouldn't it have been better to play up from the back then when we we got into the Derby half, then play a long ball into their box, and have players ready to get on the ball.

    Were we playing that badly that we couldn't get up into their half at all?

    It looked risky. I've been wondering how Cooper had his England youth teams playing, I can't find any clips, only of highlights/goals. 
  • My point is we didnt, just hitting the ball long isnt adapting to circumstances, its the exact opposite, there are different style of playing the ball out from the back.

    Having options about how you play your style is exactly right, resorting to aimless long balls is the opposite of adapting, its playing the way the opposition want you to react to being pressed. The point of pressing is 1. To win the back the ball and 2. Get your opposition to not play their normal style.

    Playing a long ball is just playing into the opposition hands.

    There is a balance missing from the team at the moment. To play well we need to find the balance point, SC needs to use Tuesday to further embed the style so we dont resort to the long ball when put under pressure.
  • rob_h said:
    I only saw the last 20 minutes, but Derby were looking the better team and we just kept hoofing the ball up. Were we playing much better before this this? Did the hoof ball tactic make us even worse or not? We weren't playing much possession football at the end of the game when I got to watch it.

    Woodman could only get the ball not far into the Derby half, if we were going to go for long ball, wouldn't it have been better to play up from the back then when we we got into the Derby half, then play a long ball into their box, and have players ready to get on the ball.

    Were we playing that badly that we couldn't get up into their half at all?

    It looked risky. I've been wondering how Cooper had his England youth teams playing, I can't find any clips, only of highlights/goals. 
    First half we were good without being particularly threatening. Kept the ball, quietened the crowd down. 

    Subs killed our possession game off and we missed Byers again as with Fulton never showing and Celina playing like he thinks the world is flat we weren't putting two passes together. Dyer and Connor were working well together down the right, baffling that he decided to pull Nathan off to leave Kalulu on tbh, regardless of the immediate knock Kalulu then took. Played like the strangers that they were.
  • jasper_T said:
    First half we were good without being particularly threatening. Kept the ball, quietened the crowd down. 

    Subs killed our possession game off and we missed Byers again as with Fulton never showing and Celina playing like he thinks the world is flat we weren't putting two passes together. Dyer and Connor were working well together down the right, baffling that he decided to pull Nathan off to leave Kalulu on tbh, regardless of the immediate knock Kalulu then took. Played like the strangers that they were.

    When/if they post up the full game, have a check of it, because it seemed to me the players had talked and were all aware we had changed to the hoofball strategy - they were all running up ready for Woodman to kick it long. 

    So I don't know if it was just because of the subs we made, or if it was something they had been working on in training.

  • No we were behind in the possession stats for most of the first half. Just the last phase of the second half brought us closer.

    Byers might be a better option away from home, instead of Celina I believe, but to say we missed him, misunderstands the way we played completely.

    Fortunately Fulton along with Matt and Rodon, rescued us during both halves
  • rob_h said:
    jasper_T said:
    First half we were good without being particularly threatening. Kept the ball, quietened the crowd down. 

    Subs killed our possession game off and we missed Byers again as with Fulton never showing and Celina playing like he thinks the world is flat we weren't putting two passes together. Dyer and Connor were working well together down the right, baffling that he decided to pull Nathan off to leave Kalulu on tbh, regardless of the immediate knock Kalulu then took. Played like the strangers that they were.

    When/if they post up the full game, have a check of it, because it seemed to me the players had talked and were all aware we had changed to the hoofball strategy - they were all running up ready for Woodman to kick it long. 

    So I don't know if it was just because of the subs we made, or if it was something they had been working on in training.

    We did that in games last season as well, when we were playing badly, couldn't pass out, and Mike would throw a strop with Nordfeldt and push up on goal kicks. When no one is showing in midfield, or when those that do immediately give it away over and over, decisions get made to limit damage and try to relieve pressure. 

    It doesn't take long for a message to get around the team and players to jog upfield for a goal kick. Not sure it means we must have worked on it in training as some cunning new ploy. It's basic stuff (and that it didn't work shows how basic it was).
    rob_hMarkG
  • edited August 11
    Yes playing the long ball is just wrong on so many different levels, and tends to happen when we feel pressured and is always counter productive.
  • A big problem as well as reverting to Mynydd Newydd tactics was the failure of a couple of our players to adapt their approach to the circumstances and try and look after the ball.
    The two biggest culprits were Celina and Dhanda. Two very talented players - but there were many occasions when they needed to hold the ball and make a simple pass to retain possession and allow our defence to move up the pitch. Instead we saw them try a Soccer AM type great teckers  attempt to showboat.
    Moving our back 4 up the pitch was essential at the time because (a) we needed room to play our possession game and (b) Derby had no express pace to threaten the space in behind us.
    The video review and training with the team will be interesting back at Fairwood this week.
    Luckily all of the above can be put right with practice and further embedding the new players (who are all young) - If we were struggling through bad attitude and a lack of passion - there is no fixing that!

  • jasper_T said:
    We did that in games last season as well, when we were playing badly, couldn't pass out, and Mike would throw a strop with Nordfeldt and push up on goal kicks. When no one is showing in midfield, or when those that do immediately give it away over and over, decisions get made to limit damage and try to relieve pressure. 

    It doesn't take long for a message to get around the team and players to jog upfield for a goal kick. Not sure it means we must have worked on it in training as some cunning new ploy. It's basic stuff (and that it didn't work shows how basic it was).

    Who was it that made the decision to change to play to long kicks, would it have been Grimes as captain, or could it have come from the management when the subs were put on?

    Here are some good stats:
    whoscored.com/Matches/1381361/MatchReport/England-Championship-2019-2020-Derby-Swansea

  • This manager is hoof ball. Play it out from the back FFS. Play football is should be. On the f turf. 
  • rob_h said:
    jasper_T said:
    We did that in games last season as well, when we were playing badly, couldn't pass out, and Mike would throw a strop with Nordfeldt and push up on goal kicks. When no one is showing in midfield, or when those that do immediately give it away over and over, decisions get made to limit damage and try to relieve pressure. 

    It doesn't take long for a message to get around the team and players to jog upfield for a goal kick. Not sure it means we must have worked on it in training as some cunning new ploy. It's basic stuff (and that it didn't work shows how basic it was).

    Who was it that made the decision to change to play to long kicks, would it have been Grimes as captain, or could it have come from the management when the subs were put on?

    Here are some good stats:
    whoscored.com/Matches/1381361/MatchReport/England-Championship-2019-2020-Derby-Swansea

    I would be surprised if Cooper brought on Dhanda and said to the team "long balls now, lads, let's go direct".
  • Might have missed a trick but early doors Borja turned Keogh, and the Derby man as he always does moaned about the foul. By my reckoning he was last man
  • SVJack said:
    Might have missed a trick but early doors Borja turned Keogh, and the Derby man as he always does moaned about the foul. By my reckoning he was last man
    Last man isn't a rule.
  • Is the clear goalscoring opportunity rule no long in effect?
  • The last man rule is still in place except its not an automatic red card if there is a genuine attempt to take the ball.

    As the ball was well ahead of borja when he was tackled, tricky to argue it was a genuine attempt at the ball. Its a yellow card only if there is a genuine attempt at getting the ball.

    So probably only the third worst decision by the referree during the match!
  • jasper_T said:
    I would be surprised if Cooper brought on Dhanda and said to the team "long balls now, lads, let's go direct".
    So it must have been Grimes as he was captain.
  • I doubt Matt would be instigating a long ball game.
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