Football betting site Betway

Match Discussion: Derby County v Swans - Championship 2019/20

1235

Comments

  • SVJack said:
    Is the clear goalscoring opportunity rule no long in effect?
    That's the rule. "Last man" isn't part of the definition. 
  • rob_h said:
    jasper_T said:
    I would be surprised if Cooper brought on Dhanda and said to the team "long balls now, lads, let's go direct".
    So it must have been Grimes as he was captain.
    Mike has been doing most of the shouting since halfway through the Hull game.
  • It got a bit messy mid 2 nd half but we had players on the pitch that have never played together. There's no change to longball tactics. We scrapped for a point away at a decent team. The boys will get better as the season progresses. It was a deserved and well fought for point. We should be pleased we looked so solid. 
  • MarkG said:
    It got a bit messy mid 2 nd half but we had players on the pitch that have never played together. There's no change to longball tactics. We scrapped for a point away at a decent team. The boys will get better as the season progresses. It was a deserved and well fought for point. We should be pleased we looked so solid. 
    Tell that to the manager he expected to win.
  • MarkG said:
    It got a bit messy mid 2 nd half but we had players on the pitch that have never played together. There's no change to longball tactics. We scrapped for a point away at a decent team. The boys will get better as the season progresses. It was a deserved and well fought for point. We should be pleased we looked so solid. 

    I'm really glad we held out and got a point, but I'm not a fan of hoofball. When we started our possession play under Martinez, the improvements were palin to see. By the time we had reached the Championship, we were one of the only teams playing this way at the time. 

    We did well in the premier playing 'the Swansea way', but when we slipped back and changed our successful style we became worse and worse. It's for Cooper to decide the tactics, and to train the team to play from the back, usually it's the manger who decides to change the tactics and will get the word out to one of the players.

    There are better change of tactics than what I watched yesterday imo.
  • jasper_T said:
    SVJack said:
    Is the clear goalscoring opportunity rule no long in effect?
    That's the rule. "Last man" isn't part of the definition. 
    I shall endeavour to use the correct terminology going forward. Last man/denial of goalscoring opportunity pretty much the same though
  • How can you play it from the back when all your men are marked? The goalie needle to go long but celina and Dhanda weren't really up to the task. The real shame was when we did break we wasted the final ball. 
    Jackareme
  • edited August 11
    MarkG said:
    How can you play it from the back when all your men are marked? 
    How did we play like that before, and also in the Premiership. Is it because our players are not good enough to play that way, or were they having an off day? I will have to check the full match when it gets uploaded.
  • @MarkG our players have to move and find space. There was a lack of movement in the second half, the passing game demands movement.

    We seem to just go completely off our expected style, which is concerning. Even if marked our players have the skill levels to play around them. If they are marking us high then there will be spaces in midfield and up front.
    Jackaremerob_h
  • rob_h said:
    MarkG said:
    It got a bit messy mid 2 nd half but we had players on the pitch that have never played together. There's no change to longball tactics. We scrapped for a point away at a decent team. The boys will get better as the season progresses. It was a deserved and well fought for point. We should be pleased we looked so solid. 

    I'm really glad we held out and got a point, but I'm not a fan of hoofball. When we started our possession play under Martinez, the improvements were palin to see. By the time we had reached the Championship, we were one of the only teams playing this way at the time. 

    We did well in the premier playing 'the Swansea way', but when we slipped back and changed our successful style we became worse and worse. It's for Cooper to decide the tactics, and to train the team to play from the back, usually it's the manger who decides to change the tactics and will get the word out to one of the players.

    There are better change of tactics than what I watched yesterday imo.
    Steve Cooper is  no clone of Roberto or Brendan in the way he sets his team out but are we that big a club where we can dictate that we look for somebody of their ilk to manage the club, especially when that decision is going to be made by Trevor Birch who has no experience in being in charge of clubs who play to that style.

    Birch is aware of our club's background and how we made our name since Roberto was manager but if we can be close to that style and be challenging for honours at the end of the season don't you think the vast majority of fans will accept that. Hitting the ball long when necessary is nowhere near 'hoofball' as we know it from Tony Pulis's teams but a tactic that enables a team to regroup under pressure..

    Potter set his teams out to play very close to how we played the game when we drew admirers but he was far from perfect in rectifying ongoing problems through the season, whether it be in poor recruitment or a brittle defence, defending set pieces let alone in team selection.

    Laudrup's first season was a mix of passing football and exciting attacking play and if Cooper can get anywhere near to that success rate with the utilisation of the long ball out of defence where necessary, most fans will accept it.

    Far too early in the season to make any judgement and best to see how we perform over the first ten matches and then start to criticise the tactics let alone the manager and players. 
    rob_hSeaJack
  • I agree Colin_swansea, it is far too early and there are plenty of teams who use this type of strategy and achieve success. 

    It has been a surprise to me that's all,  because Cooper did say he was aware of the 'Swansea way' and it is the way he likes to play.


  • I find it bizzare that after just two league games people are moaning about the performance yesterday. Derby sussed our style and countered it and as we starting to lose possession with our passing in our own half the only other option was to “ hoof “ the ball upfield . But still held out for a point great work 
  • We will know by the end of September, but 4 points isn’t a poor return and we can certainly play better.
  • OnceaJack said:
    This manager is hoof ball. Play it out from the back FFS. Play football is should be. On the f turf. 
    ????????????
  • rob_h said:
    I agree Colin_swansea, it is far too early and there are plenty of teams who use this type of strategy and achieve success. 

    It has been a surprise to me that's all,  because Cooper did say he was aware of the 'Swansea way' and it is the way he likes to play.


    In all honesty I would have been surprised if a British coach like Cooper turned out to be the modern day Roberto as these guys are few and far between, unless of course a club has an endless supply of cash. Cooper made himself an attractive proposition to Birch in the manner he went about his business at academy level prior to winning the World Youth Cup at U17 level while I feel he has the liking of passing football in his belief of how the game is to be played, especially at home, but in tight matches away from the Liberty, as was shown at Derby, he could appear to have that ability to get over to his players the need to resort to basics when under pressure and regroup, something Potter lacked in so many away games last season. Only time will tell.
  • SVJack said:
    jasper_T said:
    SVJack said:
    Is the clear goalscoring opportunity rule no long in effect?
    That's the rule. "Last man" isn't part of the definition. 
    I shall endeavour to use the correct terminology going forward. Last man/denial of goalscoring opportunity pretty much the same though
    It's not, though. Drives me barmy when commentators start discussing whether someone was the last man or not. It's a small and often irrelevant factor in the referee's decision. You can be the last man and foul when there's no goalscoring opportunity, or you can be the third last man and prevent a clear opportunity. 

    Like the one on Borja on Saturday Keogh was technically "the last man" but in no sense was it a clear goalscoring opportunity. There was no discussion to be had over a red card. It's like if you start giving handballs when players raise their arm if it hits them in the chest.
  • @MarkG our players have to move and find space. There was a lack of movement in the second half, the passing game demands movement.

    We seem to just go completely off our expected style, which is concerning. Even if marked our players have the skill levels to play around them. If they are marking us high then there will be spaces in midfield and up front.
    Rubbish how can you find space from a goal kick when a team are putting a high press on you??????? The ball is dead.
    When a team put a high press on you from a goal kick theres no room for errors, totally different finding space in open play players are moving off the ball.
    barry
  • Watched Newcastle v Arsenal today when Newcastle put a high press on Arsenal the majority of the time Arsenal went long.
  • enaitch said:
    I find it bizzare that after just two league games people are moaning about the performance yesterday. Derby sussed our style and countered it and as we starting to lose possession with our passing in our own half the only other option was to “ hoof “ the ball upfield . But still held out for a point great work 
    This in a nutshell ????
  • Osian was interviewed on Radio Wales and was asked about Cooper. Said he was a coach that loves Spanish football, and often went over there to study games, especially Barca.

    just because we are playing some longer balls does not make us a long ball team. Go say that to Guardiola who does the same
    rob_h
  • enaitch said:
    I find it bizzare that after just two league games people are moaning about the performance yesterday. Derby sussed our style and countered it and as we starting to lose possession with our passing in our own half the only other option was to “ hoof “ the ball upfield . But still held out for a point great work 
    I'm not moaning, I'm confused. I saw the last 20 minutes of the game and Derby looked the better team, they had more of the ball and were attacking us a lot. I noticed Woodman playing the long ball at every opportunity, and I decided that could be why we weren't doing so well.

    Reports have said we struggled at the end of the game, I've been told Woodman was only kicking long at the end.

    I need to watch the full replay to understand it better. If most people think that  playing the long ball was the best we could have done under the circumstances, I have to take that, as I haven't seen anything else of the game.


  • Cooper is certainly appearing more pragmatic than Potter, but as pointed out this is not necessarily a bad thing as long as you stick to your principles for the most part. What disappointed me was not that we were by passing the press with longer balls out of defence, but that the balls were aimless, made worse by Celina and Dhanda not able/willing to hold the ball. I would be sitting down in front of the TV and tape with both of them!
    if the tactic was to hoof it long (and I don't believe it was a tactic so much as we lost our way) then Borja should have stayed on with Surridge replacing Celina, this would have dramatically improved our chances of holding the longer "escape balls".

    One thing not really commented on is how much better we look defending set pieces - if ever there were famous last words..
    However, I watched the game live on saturday and have watched back highlights as well, and it is clear that the organization is WAY better. Not only are players getting marked up, but the most dangerous headers of the ball are not being allowed to run free and attack the ball from a running jump. Woodman is not afraid to attack the ball in the 6 yard box as well..
    Well done to Margetson, Marsh and Cooper!!
    rob_h
  • Jackareme, I had noticed in the stats from this link that we had won the Aerial Duel Success Derby: 44% Swans: 56%, things may be on the up.

    whoscored.com/Derby-Swansea


    Jackareme
  • edited August 11
    We are more organised in defence this year and long may it continue.

    I don’t understand some of the comments about the rather aimless long ball game we ended up drifting into especially at the end of the match.

    Some posters seem to be suggesting that Man City play it long sometimes, so it’s ok. However that’s not a reasonable argument, as when they do it’s a long pass, normally so is ours but not on Saturday.

    West Ham v Man City. They had 57% possession and 87% pass completion. Of their passing about 8% were long. 

    Swansea v Hull. We had 63% possession and 83% pass completion. Of our passing about 8.4% were long.

    Derby v Swansea. We had 41% possession and 73% pass completion. Of our passing about 13% were long. Essentially instead of playing the ball short to a team member we proportionally played the ball longer 50%-60% more often. Those numbers aren’t unrelated to each other.

    So the way we normally play is similar to Man City including the amount of long balls, but it was different against Derby, instead of playing our normal game we shifting into something else. Most of us spotted it but don’t know if it was planned or not.

    It’s not the style of football we should be playing imo, nor is it effective. Yesterday brought back bad memories of recent years in the PL, but I hope it’s a blip and we get back to playing our style. My impression, though I could be wrong, is that SC wasn’t happy with aspects of our performance, and this is probably one of the reasons why.

    Derby were ok, but they weren’t actually that good but we seem to have lost some confidence in our play and made them look better. Hopefully bedding in problems, but we will see.

    rob_h
  • Yes playing the long ball is just wrong on so many different levels, and tends to happen when we feel pressured and is always counter productive.
    Well in the Hull game, there was a period in the 2nd half where we were playing out and losing the ball 20 yards from our goal, at least when we went long we were losing it 50 yards from goal with a chance to get numbers between the ball and our goal. Although not ideal, definitely preferable under the circumstances. 
  • edited August 11
    @ITK look at the difference in passing long and short between Hull and Derby. Against Hull we passed long to a player and maintained our pass success rate, against Derby we were just kicking long to no-one, more often than not, and our pass success dropped as a result, that just gave Derby more time with the ball to attack us with.

    No wonder we ended up under more pressure, give the ball away enough and you end up paying for it. Fortunately we have improved our defensive structure, especially against set pieces.

    And we did win against Hull.
    Jackareme
  • @bobby1983 I saw the Newcastle match and Arsenal passed the ball long about as often we normally do, but 90%+ they played the ball short and kept the ball away from the high press. Exactly the way they should.

  • We seem to just go completely off our expected style, which is concerning. Even if marked our players have the skill levels to play around them. If they are marking us high then there will be spaces in midfield and up front.
    That's what I'm saying, there were spaces in midfield and upfront but those players weren't up to the task and it got messy. But they'll come good when they hey get more game time playing together. 
  • @markg Agreed the style isn’t embedded yet, but they need as much game time as possible to get it engrained quickly. Matches will start coming thick and fast soon.
  • I’m as disappointed as SC about not winning the game. Going on what we achieved winning against Hull from a goal down, and seeing how Derby played against Huddersfield in the opening game, I felt that the 3 points were there for the taking over the weekend. I’ll have to watch the game as a neutral as the BBC Radio Wales commentary may have understandably given me a  skewed impression about our play. One notable example is that Baston was described as poor in the first half and yet this doesn’t ring true going on the comments on this thread.
    SpringheeledJackJackareme
Sign In or Register to comment.