Football betting site Betway

Match Discussion: Derby County v Swans - Championship 2019/20

12346»

Comments

  • It seems a bit early in the season to be overly concerned about this,if at all.
    Surely flexibility within a game is essential.I well remember lots of moaning here over recent years about not having a 'Plan B' or even a 'Plan C'.We are very hard to please sometimes?
  • edited August 12
    @Moorlands It’s important to identify potential flaws in the game plan early. If our response to a hard press is to play the ball long and inaccurately, then we can guarantee all teams will press hard. Like it or not all teams will be reviewing the game in detail to identify weaknesses and the next team we play will instigate the hard press and so on. 

    The reason teams have been reluctant in the past is we demonstrated the ability to pass round and through them if they tried, which made them reluctant to try. If they believe when put under pressure we will resort to a long ball to get out, most teams will see that as a fair return for them as they are far more likely to win the ball back.
    SeaJackrob_h
  • Yes @SpringheeledJack - we don't want to be in a position after game 2 of the opposition having a very easy plan of how to stop us playing. I also don't agree with @ITK in his assessment of it being preferable to give it a hoof and concede the ball on the halfway line - rather than trying to play.
    In the second half of that game it was noticeable that Derby were launching wave after wave of attack and the Swans were being pressed higher and higher up the pitch. This causes a couple of consequences.
    First with action areas almost totally in our defensive third we give the referee every opportunity to give free kick and penalty decisions in critical area - that ref needed zero encouragement.
    Second the dumb luck of the bounce of the ball and ricochet - or slight lack of concentration is much more dangerous.
    Third all of the space gets squeezed out of the game and our passing style gets progressively "choked".
    With no possession the volume of attacks goes up - if we cannot hold the ball we are facing 20 attacks instead of (lets say 10).
    On Saturday, through heroic and well organised defending we survived - but the above is NOT a recipe for success.
    What we achieved in the first half was a perfect plan - we drew Waghorn and the two wingers toward us - and passed around them stretching the game and giving their midfield a headache. They typically retreated which meant that Grimes and Fulton (with the two full backs) had pretty free possession to start to look forward.
    In the second half the Derby midfield committed further into the press - and that is when we should have been looking for the space further up the field and hitting accurate passes when not under pressure.
    Where we fell down was that Peterson Celina and Dhanda were not finding pockets of space to make themselves available and were incapable of looking after the ball when they got it (disgraceful for players of their quality), and totally ill equipped to win a challenge. Surridge did not come looking for the ball either. With any quality possession in the middle third we could have moved our defensive line up the pitch and made Derby do some tracking back. Every minute in possession was also a minute when Derby couldn't hurt us - We needed to defend more with the ball by keeping it away from Derby.

    Man City (as mentioned) have evolved the antidote to the high press - by playing over the press into available players. This is so dangerous to the opposition because it exposes them to swift counters that they often don't even bother pressing the Man City back line. We need to find the answer to this as well - otherwise most teams will come and squeeze us high. By the end of October we need to have a number of successful exit strategies when pressed - because Cardiff will come to the Liberty absolutely focussed on getting into our grill and stopping any kind of watchable football.

    I have a high level of confidence that Cooper is not suddenly coaching "hoof ball" and he seems a smart enough cookie to me that he will find the answers. Next Saturday will be interesting, because I am sure that Preston will try and press us after watching the Derby film - If they do it will make for a very open game once we escape the press.
    rob_hSpringheeledJackColin_swansea
  • edited August 12
    I enjoyed your write up Jackareme, very interesting.

    I've had a look at the full match: for the 1st half we played really well and I thought we edged it and were the better team - we had 60% possession, and were playing as we usually do.

    The second half Derby really went for it and were very lively off the ball. They were snapping at our heels and had worked out that if they flustered us enough, they could get us to make errors and win the ball from us.

    The possession was mostly Derby in 2nd half, and they were playing a high press game. They harassed, flustered, pushed and pulled at us, and put us off our game, the ref didn't help much, but even though we had less possession, we still managed to get some good attacks going.

    We did defend very well also, so that's a plus. I think Derby are a good passing side and managed to cause us some problems. We need to gel a bit more and players will get more used to how Cooper wants us to play. Losing McBurnie and not playing Routledge must have had an effect, as they both played most of the pre-season games - were 1st team choices.

    I must have caught the game at almost exactly the same time as Woodman started to kick out long. Out of the 8 long balls he kicked out, we won two of them, and managed to get the ball back from Derby with one of the kicks that led to a throw in for us, inside the Derby half.

    Only a few minutes after we started playing long ball, the presenters commented: "can't get hold of the ball at the minute" and "can't keep possession, just keep inviting derby on"

    Cooper and his team will analyse this game very deeply, also the more games we have the more he should be able to improve the way we play. He will be able to work things out far better than I ever could.

    I've listed all the long balls below:

    77:05 long ball booted out derby won it came back got a corner

    79:45  long ball booted out derby won it came back

    83:43  long ball booted out swans won it

    86:26 long ball booted out derby won it came back, led to derby being an 'inch or two' away from scoring

    87:45  long ball booted out swans won it 'led to a near swans goal'

    91:30  long ball booted out derby won it

    93:01 long ball booted out derby won it

    95:28 long ball booted out derby won it, we got back off them, then got a throw in well inside derby's half
    Jackareme
  • I think we have a blue print to play the "Swansea Way". If we get pressurised by good opposition (a lot of teams will struggle at Pride Park) we don't abandon the plan and start to become something we are not. What we need to do is get onto the practice ground and learn to execute the plan better.
    We have tons of potential to do this as a lot of our team are inexperienced and many of them still getting to know each other. Watch out for some team to over press us and we will rip them a new one with our talent in the attacking third. Maybe Preston on Saturday!
  • Still far too early to make real criticism of the manager, players, let alone systems of play, defensively let alone offensively,
    Reading into Cooper’s post match comment that he was disappointed that his team didn’t get 3 points could be seen that he expected more from his players on the day, but for me, I don’t know how expectations can be that high when new players are turning up weeks, days before the start of the season.
    There will be weeks and weeks of drills on the training field before Cooper has his best line-up in his head, or on the other hand when players, new or old, are familiar with each other.
    A well run football club can sort the above problems out within a couple of matches after the season but we are still battling against upheavals on and off the field for yet another season.
  • Clearly the last 20 minutes on Saturday were a cause for concern with long balls aplenty but I'll stick up for Cooper here - it was only a handful of games into last season that we employed similar tactics under Potter in a 0-0 at Birmingham where we got away with murder and escaped with a barely deserved point. 

    It is very early days and Cooper in all fairness seemed irritated in the post match presser at how poor we were with the ball. I have a hunch that a few bollockings were dished out on Monday when rewatching the video. Hopefully they will cut out the lazy long stuff in future. 
  • Jackareme said:
    Yes @SpringheeledJack - we don't want to be in a position after game 2 of the opposition having a very easy plan of how to stop us playing. I also don't agree with @ITK in his assessment of it being preferable to give it a hoof and concede the ball on the halfway line - rather than trying to play.
    Nice try - but that's not what I said.

    For the record my point was, if you are losing the ball when passing out (aka Hull 2nd half), it's better to lose it 50 yards from goal than 20 yards from goal.

    So to be super clear - if passing out isn't working, go longer.
  • It will take SC time with his team in competitive matches to get this right. I don’t believe there is any criticism rather factual observation of what went wrong on the pitch.

    I thought his expectations for Saturday were reasonable apart from us allowing Derby into the match by kicking long, we controlled the match. We had opportunities even though we weren’t on our game, to win the match.

    If we keep getting points whilst we improve that’s a Good sign.
    SeaJack
  • ITK said:
    Jackareme said:
    Yes @SpringheeledJack - we don't want to be in a position after game 2 of the opposition having a very easy plan of how to stop us playing. I also don't agree with @ITK in his assessment of it being preferable to give it a hoof and concede the ball on the halfway line - rather than trying to play.
    Nice try - but that's not what I said.

    For the record my point was, if you are losing the ball when passing out (aka Hull 2nd half), it's better to lose it 50 yards from goal than 20 yards from goal.

    So to be super clear - if passing out isn't working, go longer.
    Got you @ITK - and you are factually correct - however, I subscribe to the view that if passing out is not working you find different approaches to passing out that do work rather than abandon it. This might mean passing longer, but still passing to a Swans team mate. If we abandon our principles at the first hint of pressure THAT will become the default way to beat us - by turning over our possession based game.
    Time to be brave - if we concede a goal or two through playing too much I am ok with that - as it will help us open the game up by lengthening the pitch and extending the gaps between the opposition banks of players.
    So to be super clear what I am saying is - if it isn't working - do it better!
  • Out of the 8 long balls by Woodman, we only won 2 of them, and we managed to win one back from Derby quickly. So from this, I'd say it's not a good way for us to play (the Hull goal also came from a Woodman long ball out from the back). Teams like Cardiff, although we criticize them about it, they are actually very good at playing long balls from the back. Their players can win these often, and they did well in the championship playing this way. The Premier is a different story.

    I trust Steve Cooper will work out what is best for us. When teams play the high press game, this can very often be the best time to hit them on the break. The space behind opens up and if we could get a long ball up to a couple of Swans players poaching up there, all of a sudden we could catch them out.

    We will get better at playing difficult teams like this, the more the players gel - it is very early days. If Cooper can work out a better plan for us when we are under this type of pressure, it could work to our advantage .


    Jackareme
  • We do need to strengthen the midfield, so we can dominate more. I expect Byers to play tomorrow as he needs game time, I wonder who he will play at no 10 Perhaps Aldo Kalulu
  • McKay  or Byers  , McKay for me  ,

    Routledge  and Carroll  some game time  off the bench ,
  • I've noticed there was a long ball played by Derby near the end of the 1st half that we got hold of and could have got a goal from. 

    twitter.com/1161028519411027970
  • We do need to strengthen the midfield, so we can dominate more. I expect Byers to play tomorrow as he needs game time, I wonder who he will play at no 10 Perhaps Aldo Kalulu
    Not sure if Kalulu will play, depends if he's still injured or if it was just cramp?
  • 2 games in and looks like the coaching team have made huge strides in dealing with our set piece defensive soft underbelly.

    Saturday obviously exposed some other issues, which i am certain the manager is aware of.

    he tried a plan to counter the hard press we saw late in the Hull game. it didnt come off as we or the manager would have hoped. but it could be more execution than a totally flawed plan. and more work on the training pitch will help improve.

    Rome wasnt built in a day. so to expect Cooper to have all the answers and the players to execute them after less than 2 months and 2 competitive games together is a bit daft.
    rob_h
  • If we don’t play well and get a result that is already an improvement.
    rob_h
  • rob_h said:
    I enjoyed your write up Jackareme, very interesting.

    I've had a look at the full match: for the 1st half we played really well and I thought we edged it and were the better team - we had 60% possession, and were playing as we usually do.

    The second half Derby really went for it and were very lively off the ball. They were snapping at our heels and had worked out that if they flustered us enough, they could get us to make errors and win the ball from us.

    The possession was mostly Derby in 2nd half, and they were playing a high press game. They harassed, flustered, pushed and pulled at us, and put us off our game, the ref didn't help much, but even though we had less possession, we still managed to get some good attacks going.

    We did defend very well also, so that's a plus. I think Derby are a good passing side and managed to cause us some problems. We need to gel a bit more and players will get more used to how Cooper wants us to play. Losing McBurnie and not playing Routledge must have had an effect, as they both played most of the pre-season games - were 1st team choices.

    I must have caught the game at almost exactly the same time as Woodman started to kick out long. Out of the 8 long balls he kicked out, we won two of them, and managed to get the ball back from Derby with one of the kicks that led to a throw in for us, inside the Derby half.

    Only a few minutes after we started playing long ball, the presenters commented: "can't get hold of the ball at the minute" and "can't keep possession, just keep inviting derby on"

    Cooper and his team will analyse this game very deeply, also the more games we have the more he should be able to improve the way we play. He will be able to work things out far better than I ever could.

    I've listed all the long balls below:

    77:05 long ball booted out derby won it came back got a corner

    79:45  long ball booted out derby won it came back

    83:43  long ball booted out swans won it

    86:26 long ball booted out derby won it came back, led to derby being an 'inch or two' away from scoring

    87:45  long ball booted out swans won it 'led to a near swans goal'

    91:30  long ball booted out derby won it

    93:01 long ball booted out derby won it

    95:28 long ball booted out derby won it, we got back off them, then got a throw in well inside derby's half
    Not one person has mentioned the blustery weather and downpour. this has a marked effect on accuracy of passing.
    Jackareme
  • edited August 13
    @Pablo not if you play the ball on the ground and don’t kick it long.

    Also other clubs managed high possession and pass completion, not least of all the other team on the same pitch as us, Derby, 59% possession and 81% pass completion.

    If it was that blustery and a downpour, how did Derby manage?
  • Don't  you think everything has been said on this thread or your going for the record ?
  • @Malc Its a fairly reasonable response to Pablo’s comment, but yours seems to be off the thread, unless you believe it’s your place to decide when enough has been said.
  • Pablo said: 
    Not one person has mentioned the blustery weather and downpour. this has a marked effect on accuracy of passing.

    If it was blustery, long balls out from the keeper would be less accurate, especially if a strong gust of wind hit.

    I watched the Derby analysis on youtube which was very good, and they mentioned that Swansea went more on the defensive the second half, and that Derby struggle against teams that do that, they would have prefered if we had been attacking more and that is when they play at their best?

    I wouldn't say it was like as if we had parked the bus or anything. We probably did try something with the change to long balls, but this caused a reduction of our possession by quite a lot.

    I can see defensive improvements, and I think Cooper will be able to work things out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLBXTibo96s&t=8s


  • Malc said:
    Don't  you think everything has been said on this thread or your going for the record ?
    No, I just posted something that hasn't been said before.
  • It's  one half of the second game of the season , let's see after the next 6 games and then view the performances  ,

    No  , it's not my place or any one else to decide , next one I will scroll by lol

    Ever tried the Daily Telegraph  fantasy football   , good fun trying to score more points than other football fans ,

    P  S  Other Newspapers  are available  ,
    SpringheeledJack
  • edited August 13
    I think it's a good match analysis discussion of the game, on the 'Match Discussion: Derby County v Swans' thread, in the 'SCFC2 Swansea City Forum which is the place to discuss all the latest' forum.
    SpringheeledJack
  • rob_h said:

    Not sure if Kalulu will play, depends if he's still injured or if it was just cramp?

    Aldo Kalulu is a doubt after picking up an injury on his debut at Derby:

    https://www.swanseacity.com/news/preview-swansea-city-v-northampton-town
  • @Pablo not if you play the ball on the ground and don’t kick it long.

    Also other clubs managed high possession and pass completion, not least of all the other team on the same pitch as us, Derby, 59% possession and 81% pass completion.

    If it was that blustery and a downpour, how did Derby manage?
    In Pablo's myopic world, there's always an excuse for underperformance. If a Swans player shat on a plate, he'd pretend its chocolate and wolf it down.

    Inane utterings to be ritually ignored.
  • I see Courtney has made the starting line-up for Accrington....go on son. :p
    JackaremeSpringheeledJack
  • Pablo said:
    I see Courtney has made the starting line-up for Accrington....go on son. :p

    "Accrington could have levelled on 25 minutes when Baker-Richardson teed up Bishop inside the penalty area but he appeared to stumble at the vital moment and Sunderland were able to clear."

    chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/match-reports/accrington-stanley-1-3-sunderland
Sign In or Register to comment.