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How many points have we deserved?

I've seen all the home matches so far but none of the away ones.

I think all our home wins have been deserved and the scorelines have also reflected the balance of play and performance. So I'm happy that we deserved all the 9 points from our home league matches.

However, how many points have we really deserved away from home ?

Not having seen any away games yet, either in the flesh or online, I can only read the reports and what people say on here and , maybe I've got this wrong, but it seems that 2 points might be a "fairer" total of away points rather than the 7 that we've actually gained.

I'm interested in others' views on this - those that have seen the 90 minutes of each of the 3 away matches.

What I'm trying to get at with the points answer is do we really "deserve" to be top when you look at performance, balance of play etc ?
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Comments

  • We are where we are and the points totals don’t lie and we have only conceded once away from home this season . Just enjoy it and who cares what we deserved on the points total ... although on paper two sounds right  :D :D
  • 4 pts, leeds shoudl really have buried some of their chances yesterday
  • I did not see the Derby game away but by all accounts we were a little fortunate to get a point.

    QPR and yesterday I saw the full 90.

    QPR - I think we deserved the 3 points. We were the better side for most of it, apart from a 15/20 min wobble at the start of second half. 

    Yesterday, I felt we were worth a point, but it was great to nick all three. 

    At home, I did not see all the Hull game but my understanding is we just about deserved it. Preston I thought we were fortunate not to be 3-0 down half time. Birmingham we battered. 

    All things considered we're probably about 2 points better off at home and 3 points better off away than we might have expected for the actual performances we put in. 

    You can look at that one of two ways I suppose - the positive view being that we have learnt the art of grinding out results when not at our best. The alternative view is we may get found out if performances don't improve. 

    I'm still loathe to judge. I think Cooper deserves more time to put his ideas fully across, plus there's the threat of Monday to get out of the way as well first. 

    What will be interesting - and it's bound to happen - is when we are on the wrong end of a smash and grab, and how we react to it. 
  • We were awful second half against Derby (who aren't a good side) and until the penalty QPR were battering us. Don't think we'd have too many complaints about being on ~10 points at this stage.
  • 5 pts
    QPR win totally deserved and the gritty performances in the other two games deserved something in each.
  • Couldn’t comment on Derby match but for the QPR game I wouldn’t say they were battering us prior to the penalty. We were under pressure for about 15 minutes, as any away team would be before their goal and five minutes afterwards but then the penalty arrived.
  • edited September 1
    Last five minutes of the first half up to the penalty in the 70th minute was all QPR. We opened up after we went ahead, more concerned about chasing a second than controlling the game. Very dangerous away from home.
  • I do think we have been riding our luck - however I also think SC is very very astute tactically and in his man management skills !
    Bring it on with Ayew and Bastón on board we can actually get promoted ! - who would have thought it ?
  • The table doesn't lie - so in answer to your question - yes we really do deserve to be top.

    Every game is full of what ifs, so why try and dissect just ours? The crap results will happen - just enjoy it while they haven't.
    SeaJack
  • To quote Graham Potter: "The table does lie. Of course it does."
  • jasper_T said:
    Last five minutes of the first half up to the penalty in the 70th minute was all QPR. We opened up after we went ahead, more concerned about chasing a second than controlling the game. Very dangerous away from home.
    You don't have to read the stats to realise there are deficiencies in the team, especially in ball retention and closing the game down at home or away. In away matches especially the visiting team is always under more pressure than playing at home and at QPR it was a given that before and after Hugill had equalised we would be under pressure. QPR couldn't capitalise and we went ahead, game over.
    On another away day we will concede and until we can resolve our inability to kill the game we will be lucky to return home with a point. Not all away days will be akin to the chances Leeds failed to take last Saturday. 
  • Jasper, what press conference did GP say that?I’ve always thought that some teams don’t deserve to be where they are both at the top and down at the bottom. Not sure if we can go unbeaten for much longer but I for one am going to keep enjoying it whilst willing the team on to winning ways. If we do lose one of our next 3 games what will be the mood overall with the supporters I wonder? Will it be knives out or a more philosophic “it’s just one of those things, we move on and back to winning ways?”
  • If we want to ask the question, how many points have we deserved?, then there is a need to define some criteria by which you measure. Is it possession, attractiveness of play, skill displayed by players, or just gut feel?

    How do you measure it, well at least with possession it’s relatively easy, with most its impossible unless you have some sort of voting system. There is the argument, well you know it when you see it. However there is a fundamental problem with that approach, most people are biased to a greater or lesser degree.

    If you were to ask a typical Leeds fan they would say they deserve to be top of the table and be on 18 points, and they deserve to be in the Premier League, because they are a ‘big club’. You see the problem, everyone will measure by their own different criteria, and everyone deserves better, or if you are of the mindset, worse. The only measurements considered are input measures not outcome measures, and football is a game of outcomes.

    The League table is 100% accurate, all the time, it measures exactly the team outcomes with complete accuracy. What it doesn’t measure is judgemental input criteria or pretend to be a good indicator of what will happen in the future.

    Swansea Goals scored 1st, Goals Conceded 2nd, Overall goal difference 1st, Points 1st. These are the only outcome measures.

    Now some of the input measures may be a better indicator of whether current performance can be sustained. So I’m concerned we aren’t retaining enough possession and are conceding too many opportunities per match and they worry me.

    Also teams change during the season, some improve, some deteriorate, some change completely in January, so it’s never static.

    So how many points have we deserved, All Of Them, by the only criteria that counts the outcome measures.

    Can we sustain it for the rest of the season, only in my opinion, if we improve and impose our possession game and stop allowing teams so many opportunities.
  • agree SHJ.

    let's not forget that defending is a huge part of the game.

    we have done that very well, defending, in the main, when we've been asked to. odd lapses.

    but how many times were Leeds pressured or squeezed into missing the target? there was a reason for their lack if composure in front of goal. our collective defending.




    SpringheeledJackColin_swansea
  • SeaJack said:
    Jasper, what press conference did GP say that?I’ve always thought that some teams don’t deserve to be where they are both at the top and down at the bottom. Not sure if we can go unbeaten for much longer but I for one am going to keep enjoying it whilst willing the team on to winning ways. If we do lose one of our next 3 games what will be the mood overall with the supporters I wonder? Will it be knives out or a more philosophic “it’s just one of those things, we move on and back to winning ways?”
    1st April 2019
    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/potter-swansea-van-der-hoorn-16057381

    "You can be in a false position. I’m not saying we’re in a false position. You can have games where you can be behind or have games in hand. At the end of the 46 games then it’s fact. But there are times where teams can be in false positions"
  • SeaJack said:
    Jasper, what press conference did GP say that?I’ve always thought that some teams don’t deserve to be where they are both at the top and down at the bottom. Not sure if we can go unbeaten for much longer but I for one am going to keep enjoying it whilst willing the team on to winning ways. If we do lose one of our next 3 games what will be the mood overall with the supporters I wonder? Will it be knives out or a more philosophic “it’s just one of those things, we move on and back to winning ways?”
    I'll answer that question of what will happen if we start losing. There'll be the usual backlash....the glass half full club will try to calm things and say be patient, make excuses, try to calm more outspoken posters.  The glass half empty club will look for reasons and begin the usual scapegoating. Happens every time. notice how the board aren't spoken of at all now. Trevor Birch is like the second coming and SC is King. This is always how it is. winning, by whatever method, will keep the natives quiet and happy. lose and the old critics re-surface. 
    There's definitely a chance that we go through a rocky patch with such a young squad but the test of how loyal the fans are will be how they react to not winning and taking mitigating circumstances into account. One thing is for sure. This discussion board has never been so sunny 
  • I sometimes wonder whether psychologically,  thinking that away games are going to be tougher than home matches turns it into a self fulfilling prophecy, and the mindset therefore becomes biased towards this school of thought. All sports are also played between the ears as well as on the pitch, court, ground etc. I myself like Steve Cooper’s mentality to believe that an away win is always the main focus to counteract whatever lack of belief that may swirl up around the players and therefore team.
    Jeff_CowbridgeBigG
  • edited September 2
    Right, so there's no consensus on how many points we deserve and no consensus on what "deserve" really means anyway or whether we should even care.

    :) :+1:
    SeaJackSpringheeledJackbarry
  • I watched a lot of Cardiff’s games when they got promoted and the amount of times they were outplayed was unreal,but they were defenceivly strong resilient and would always nick a goal thus they deserved to get promoted,I think we can definitely play better and we will,but we’re where we are and deservedly so.i think we’re a good team that’s going to get better.
  • edited September 2
    Pablo said:

    notice how the board aren't spoken of at all now. Trevor Birch is like the second coming and SC is King

    I don't think it's as black and white as that though is it. 

    I prefer to reserve judgement on all counts, whilst acknowledging that maybe there are positive early signs but that's all they are - early. 

    If we're 15 games in and still top, then and only then can we start getting a tad excited.

    On the whole I find people on here quite balanced most of the time, maybe slightly leaning towards half empty or full but not getting too carried away just yet. I see plenty of hyperbole on social media, but not so much on these forums. 

    Why do you feel the need to constantly besmirch your own fellow supporters in this way Pablo? Does it make you feel good about yourself, superior? You're no better than anyone else on here.

    SpringheeledJack
  • Brownie said:
    I watched a lot of Cardiff’s games when they got promoted and the amount of times they were outplayed was unreal,but they were defenceivly strong resilient and would always nick a goal thus they deserved to get promoted,I think we can definitely play better and we will,but we’re where we are and deservedly so.i think we’re a good team that’s going to get better.
    And then they came back down with a whimper and are still falling.

    At some point it's useful to be the better side. Imagine that.
  • edited September 2
    SpringhealedJacks comment:
    If we want to ask the question, how many points have we deserved?, then there is a need to define some criteria by which you measure. Is it possession, attractiveness of play, skill displayed by players, or just gut feel?

    How do you measure it, well at least with possession it’s relatively easy, with most its impossible unless you have some sort of voting system. There is the argument, well you know it when you see it. However there is a fundamental problem with that approach, most people are biased to a greater or lesser degree.

    If you were to ask a typical Leeds fan they would say they deserve to be top of the table and be on 18 points, and they deserve to be in the Premier League, because they are a ‘big club’. You see the problem, everyone will measure by their own different criteria, and everyone deserves better, or if you are of the mindset, worse. The only measurements considered are input measures not outcome measures, and football is a game of outcomes.

    The League table is 100% accurate, all the time, it measures exactly the team outcomes with complete accuracy. What it doesn’t measure is judgemental input criteria or pretend to be a good indicator of what will happen in the future.

    Swansea Goals scored 1st, Goals Conceded 2nd, Overall goal difference 1st, Points 1st. These are the only outcome measures.

    Now some of the input measures may be a better indicator of whether current performance can be sustained. So I’m concerned we aren’t retaining enough possession and are conceding too many opportunities per match and they worry me.

    Also teams change during the season, some improve, some deteriorate, some change completely in January, so it’s never static.

    So how many points have we deserved, All Of Them, by the only criteria that counts the outcome measures.

    Can we sustain it for the rest of the season, only in my opinion, if we improve and impose our possession game and stop allowing teams so many opportunities.

    Have to say I like this comment including the post by JasperT regarding any games in hand etc

    My take on it is as SHJ stated

    The league table is what it is and that is what I look at until the end of the season
    We could have a couple of games in hand and be in a precarious position in the league but until games are won drawn or lost then it is zero points for those games.

    At present as long as we(The squad and team management) keep doing what they are then we may well win the league.
    If not then so be it.
    Promotion or another season in Championship based on points tally at end of season will be the the only judgement that can be made
    many teams have gone up and been relegated or won the league with a lot of bad decisions going their way.

    So I stand by Steve Cooper when he says there is room for improvement which they will keep working to achieve.

    That is really all we as supporters can do instead of actually going on about all the if's and but's
    Although it does make interesting reading everyones different opinions

    Roll on the international break being over and bring on Forest at the Liberty

    One game at a time, squad getting into top gear and keeping the faith as all seems really exciting at the moment 
    STID
    SpringheeledJack
  • Pablo said:

    notice how the board aren't spoken of at all now. Trevor Birch is like the second coming and SC is King

    I don't think it's as black and white as that though is it. 

    I prefer to reserve judgement on all counts, whilst acknowledging that maybe there are positive early signs but that's all they are - early. 

    If we're 15 games in and still top, then and only then can we start getting a tad excited.

    On the whole I find people on here quite balanced most of the time, maybe slightly leaning towards half empty or full but not getting too carried away just yet. I see plenty of hyperbole on social media, but not so much on these forums. 

    Why do you feel the need to constantly besmirch your own fellow supporters in this way Pablo? Does it make you feel good about yourself, superior? You're no better than anyone else on here.

    I tell it exactly as it is. Truth hurts sometimes but I'm more interested in the truth than anything you have to say Gary, seeing as only a few days ago you were being a deliberate and obnoxious arse towards me . As for that idea of superiority or whatever you're blabbing about, I'm afraid that is some kind of insecure fantasy you've dreamed up. My point is that fans are happy when winning but turn quickly on their team when they lose. As evidence you can go back through every thread on this site where we've lost. 
    You'll be rattling on about the board as soon as we lose a few games I guarantee it.  
  • I agree jasp,having 2 brutes for cb and a beast up front and being well organised has run its course in the championship.
    Jackareme
  • Brownie said:
    I agree jasp,having 2 brutes for cb and a beast up front and being well organised has run its course in the championship.
    And about time too!!
  • Pablo said:
    Pablo said:

    notice how the board aren't spoken of at all now. Trevor Birch is like the second coming and SC is King

    I don't think it's as black and white as that though is it. 

    I prefer to reserve judgement on all counts, whilst acknowledging that maybe there are positive early signs but that's all they are - early. 

    If we're 15 games in and still top, then and only then can we start getting a tad excited.

    On the whole I find people on here quite balanced most of the time, maybe slightly leaning towards half empty or full but not getting too carried away just yet. I see plenty of hyperbole on social media, but not so much on these forums. 

    Why do you feel the need to constantly besmirch your own fellow supporters in this way Pablo? Does it make you feel good about yourself, superior? You're no better than anyone else on here.

    I tell it exactly as it is. Truth hurts sometimes but I'm more interested in the truth than anything you have to say Gary, seeing as only a few days ago you were being a deliberate and obnoxious arse towards me . As for that idea of superiority or whatever you're blabbing about, I'm afraid that is some kind of insecure fantasy you've dreamed up. My point is that fans are happy when winning but turn quickly on their team when they lose. As evidence you can go back through every thread on this site where we've lost. 
    You'll be rattling on about the board as soon as we lose a few games I guarantee it.  
    Nope, you tell it exactly as you see it, which is completely different. Consistently conflating your over-inflated opinion as truth.

    Ive not changed my opinion on the board or gone quiet on them, if you’d read any of my recent posts you would know that. I’ll always view them with suspicion, it’ll take a lot more than 8 half decent games to convince me.

    My point about your superiority complex - which I’m surprised a self-professed “educated and erudite” individual like you can’t grasp - is that you won’t stand for any criticism of the players, yet you are quite happy to come on here and run down fellow supporters. If you can’t see the irony in that, then perhaps you’re not quite as educated as you make out Pablo
  • Gary you write boring self aggrandising posts. Like everyone else on here we've had to put up with your shrill comments and anyone with an opposing view gets jumped on by you with great enthusiasm because you get some thrill out of the combat plus you're fiercely dogmatic. 
    I'm afraid your 'complex' is about wanting to be taken seriously. People might if you start being a decent poster instead of an agent provocateur who aggressively slurs others. You're mostly abusive and childish, hence I stopped replying to your provocations. It's obvious to me that you're projecting your own insecurities. I don't have a superiority complex, that again is such a blatant example of  projection again of your personal viewpoint. For your information, I grew up on a council estate humbly and in poverty which is hardly the background of someone with a 'superiority complex'. I also take on twerps like you who don't like anyone who disagrees with their point of view about the board, which was mostly based on myth and hearsay. And please forgive me for being educated, I'll try to dumb down in future so you understand me better
    True that I tend to stand by the players through thick and thin. The DNA of the club is firmly imprinted on me. It's my way to stick with them even when not winning.  I feel that's a strength rather than a weakness, but maybe that can be debated. you on the other hand always lay into the team and board with relish when things aren't going so well. Because you get a kick out of it. Are you from Swansea? because to me it seems you don't love the club as I do, but then maybe that's my mistake and I'm projecting.
    All I'd say in conclusion is you really need to get to know yourself because self awareness is where it's at. and maybe try being nicer as people are sick of keyboard warriors, well I am anyway. QED as they say
  • Pablo said:
    Gary you write boring self aggrandising posts. Like everyone else on here we've had to put up with your shrill comments and anyone with an opposing view gets jumped on by you with great enthusiasm because you get some thrill out of the combat plus you're fiercely dogmatic. 
    I'm afraid your 'complex' is about wanting to be taken seriously. People might if you start being a decent poster instead of an agent provocateur who aggressively slurs others. You're mostly abusive and childish, hence I stopped replying to your provocations. It's obvious to me that you're projecting your own insecurities. I don't have a superiority complex, that again is such a blatant example of  projection again of your personal viewpoint. For your information, I grew up on a council estate humbly and in poverty which is hardly the background of someone with a 'superiority complex'. I also take on twerps like you who don't like anyone who disagrees with their point of view about the board, which was mostly based on myth and hearsay. And please forgive me for being educated, I'll try to dumb down in future so you understand me better
    True that I tend to stand by the players through thick and thin. The DNA of the club is firmly imprinted on me. It's my way to stick with them even when not winning.  I feel that's a strength rather than a weakness, but maybe that can be debated. you on the other hand always lay into the team and board with relish when things aren't going so well. Because you get a kick out of it. Are you from Swansea? because to me it seems you don't love the club as I do, but then maybe that's my mistake and I'm projecting.
    All I'd say in conclusion is you really need to get to know yourself because self awareness is where it's at. and maybe try being nicer as people are sick of keyboard warriors, well I am anyway. QED as they say
    Thanks for proving my point exactly Pablo, cheers
  • Pablo said:
    Gary you write boring self aggrandising posts. Like everyone else on here we've had to put up with your shrill comments and anyone with an opposing view gets jumped on by you with great enthusiasm because you get some thrill out of the combat plus you're fiercely dogmatic. 
    I'm afraid your 'complex' is about wanting to be taken seriously. People might if you start being a decent poster instead of an agent provocateur who aggressively slurs others. You're mostly abusive and childish, hence I stopped replying to your provocations. It's obvious to me that you're projecting your own insecurities. I don't have a superiority complex, that again is such a blatant example of  projection again of your personal viewpoint. For your information, I grew up on a council estate humbly and in poverty which is hardly the background of someone with a 'superiority complex'. I also take on twerps like you who don't like anyone who disagrees with their point of view about the board, which was mostly based on myth and hearsay. And please forgive me for being educated, I'll try to dumb down in future so you understand me better
    True that I tend to stand by the players through thick and thin. The DNA of the club is firmly imprinted on me. It's my way to stick with them even when not winning.  I feel that's a strength rather than a weakness, but maybe that can be debated. you on the other hand always lay into the team and board with relish when things aren't going so well. Because you get a kick out of it. Are you from Swansea? because to me it seems you don't love the club as I do, but then maybe that's my mistake and I'm projecting.
    All I'd say in conclusion is you really need to get to know yourself because self awareness is where it's at. and maybe try being nicer as people are sick of keyboard warriors, well I am anyway. QED as they say
    Thanks for proving my point exactly Pablo, cheers
    no problem, always happy to oblige! ;)
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