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Cooper morphing into Monk

So, after the owners have sold all the silverware, and will sell what is left as soon as they are able, we are beginning to see what Cooper is made of. To be clear, not a lot.

It is very much as we were after Laudrup left, and we had Monk dumped on us, starts off ok, some left over credit with the players for the previous coach, now we see the last drops of the great football we saw under Potter, being drained away by Coopers style. I was very concerned by his appointment, and the evidence so far does not fill me with any confidence. 

Very slow to react to any changes the opponents make, I would say, does not react at all. We are creating very little, and have been fortunate to pick up points in many games when we have been over run for long periods.

There is no plan B, unless you call swapping one centre forward for another, about the same time most games. We were crying out for something different Saturday,as well as at Bristol and against Forest. Even moving Ayew to centre forward was worth a try, but no imagination from Cooper at all.

The football is becoming so Monk like it is frightening. 

Yes, he has ben dealt a poor hand by the club, but the few players he has brought in have made little or no impact.

I know the usual we are winning/picking up points/second on the league brigade will pipe up, but as Martinez often said, if the performances are good, the results in the end will follow. Likewise, as with Monk, the performances were abysmal, you get the results your performances deserve in the end.
YJB07
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Comments

  • I could not disagree more.

    Cooper's transfer window was a good one. Woodman is a class goalkeeper. Wilmot is a decent LB, where we needed cover. Surridge has goals in him at Championship level, he just needs to be played in the right circumstances. Peterson looks like a good player, who needs more game time to bed in.

    Cooper's substitutions on the whole have been very intelligent - unlike Potter, whose subs were mostly baffling. The last two games have been disappointing, subs wise - I'd have liked to have seen JG come on earlier against Watford, for example - but on the whole he has done very well.

    The football is as attractive as it was under Potter IMO. Still work to be done on building understanding between players, but on the whole solid progress on last year. You only have to listen to what the commentators were saying about us in the Watford and Reading games - 'we looked like the premier league team' at Watford and 'most exciting game of football this season' against Reading.

    Meanwhile Potter sits one point off the relegation zone with three defeats and two draws in his last five games despite spending £61m in the transfer window on building his dream team. Out of his depth.
  • There have definitely been parallels with Monk's 8th place season. Limited chances, games being won by last-ditch defending/goalkeeping/pure luck. We've gone more direct in style (especially when already ahead), and more physical in team selection.

    People wouldn't hear a bad word said about that period when we were winning either.
    Llanjackgarythenotrashcougar
  • Cadleigh
    Wilmot, Peterson and Kalulu have and will hardly play.

    You really thought we played like a Premier League team against Reading ? Did you attend the game ?

    The football is a light year behind last season, and the position of Brighton is not relevant in any shape or form. We are considering Swansea City, the performances in my opinion are becoming worse every game.
  • What's the saying can't make an omelette without breaking eggs?
    Manager needs to make mistakes to learn
    Yes at the moment it's gone a bit stodgy but it's not like we're being hammered every week
    I didn't think we would do this well so I'm not disappointed
    Baston is improving and we have players like Petersen Kalulu and Carroll to come in and offer something different
    Personally I'm not terribly interested in getting into the back room at the casino where everybody gets fleeced of huge amounts
    We had seven years of that
    All the money has done is create massive refereeing bias against almost all the smaller clubs
    Who needs it?
    Just enjoy the football and let's try not to project doom despondency and incompetence onto a manager who has to learn his trade in a very public arena
    Decent job so far but I have no expectations of promotion only of a financially sound club decent football and a decent finish
    Anything  else is a bonus
    rob_hmoorlandsGingergitTauntonJack
  • Andrew2 said:
    You really thought we played like a Premier League team against Reading ? Did you attend the game ?
    If you read my post again you will see that I wrote that commentators said that we played like a Premier League team against Watford, it wasn't me who said that and I sure as hell didn't say it about the Reading game (which I was not able to attend, although I was at Watford and will be at Charlton)
  • And what do you want, Andrew 2, keep all the silverware and go bust, ? Some people just don't get it.
  • Cad, Andrew 2 couldn't wait for a little blip, a drawn game to his is joyous so he can come on here to tell us how shite we are, he's not a fan so I'd ignore him.
  • I have a theory now that our players have two ways they play.  One is attacking football where they try and create wave after wave of attacks, and the other is their defensive stye, when they sit back and let the other team come at them.

    When we are playing in our attacking mode of play, we are a very good team. We are fighting to win every ball, and it is very difficult to play against us. This is when commentators are giving us paraise, x footballers saying they would love to play in our team, and fans on social media are enjoying the football.

    The there is our defensive mode of play, this is when the players decide to sit back and let the other team come at them. They aren't too bad at it, and it has worked for us a bit, but on the whole we seem to change into a very poor team. It's like a switch goes on in the players minds, from then on they see defensive play as not having to fight 100% for every ball, as if they are defending now so that urgency has gone, they can relax and just get behind the ball.

    You don't see top premier clubs do this and it's probably inexperience by Cooper. Maybe if the players want to sit back but also keep that high level of urgency to win every ball it may work better - it just seems the only explanation I can think of why we can change mid game from playing really well and attacking well, to becoming a different team, a poor team. 

    maybe the theory is wrong, but I have seen them initiate a change like this during games, it seems bad tactics to me. 
  • I'm not sure the second half against Reading was a defensive gameplan they put us under pressure and we simply couldn't play out for long periods. The emphasis on breaking quickly with fast ball creates our own problems when our players tire and opposition teams start winning their battles. Potter seemed to have issues recognising when players were tired last season, we were top of the league for giving up points from winning positions (also gaining them from losing ones). Can see it continuing, depending on the form of Woodman and Joe who have saved us quite often so far.

    We could have done with more relaxation, more patience imo. Keep the ball for 5 minutes, we were 1-0 up at home. Same as QPR away, we were up and wanted to play quicker and higher risk. "Playing like the PL team" means controlling the game, not trying to score more and more goals all the time.
    rob_h
  • What's the saying can't make an omelette without breaking eggs?
    Manager needs to make mistakes to learn
    Yes at the moment it's gone a bit stodgy but it's not like we're being hammered every week
    I didn't think we would do this well so I'm not disappointed
    Baston is improving and we have players like Petersen Kalulu and Carroll to come in and offer something different
    Personally I'm not terribly interested in getting into the back room at the casino where everybody gets fleeced of huge amounts
    We had seven years of that
    All the money has done is create massive refereeing bias against almost all the smaller clubs
    Who needs it?
    Just enjoy the football and let's try not to project doom despondency and incompetence onto a manager who has to learn his trade in a very public arena
    Decent job so far but I have no expectations of promotion only of a financially sound club decent football and a decent finish
    Anything  else is a bonus
    My opinions exactly Northernswan,I couldn't have expressed them any better.
  • jasper_T said:
    I'm not sure the second half against Reading was a defensive gameplan they put us under pressure and we simply couldn't play out for long periods. The emphasis on breaking quickly with fast ball creates our own problems when our players tire and opposition teams start winning their battles. Potter seemed to have issues recognising when players were tired last season, we were top of the league for giving up points from winning positions (also gaining them from losing ones). Can see it continuing, depending on the form of Woodman and Joe who have saved us quite often so far.

    We could have done with more relaxation, more patience imo. Keep the ball for 5 minutes, we were 1-0 up at home. Same as QPR away, we were up and wanted to play quicker and higher risk. "Playing like the PL team" means controlling the game, not trying to score more and more goals all the time.
    I haven't watched the game yet, but a few people have said we sat back too much trying to hold out for the win.

    I'm waiting for the full match upload to check.
  • rob_h said:
    jasper_T said:
    I'm not sure the second half against Reading was a defensive gameplan they put us under pressure and we simply couldn't play out for long periods. The emphasis on breaking quickly with fast ball creates our own problems when our players tire and opposition teams start winning their battles. Potter seemed to have issues recognising when players were tired last season, we were top of the league for giving up points from winning positions (also gaining them from losing ones). Can see it continuing, depending on the form of Woodman and Joe who have saved us quite often so far.

    We could have done with more relaxation, more patience imo. Keep the ball for 5 minutes, we were 1-0 up at home. Same as QPR away, we were up and wanted to play quicker and higher risk. "Playing like the PL team" means controlling the game, not trying to score more and more goals all the time.
    I haven't watched the game yet, but a few people have said we sat back too much trying to hold out for the win.

    I'm waiting for the full match upload to check.
    Are they still uploading the full matches? Haven't seen one in weeks.
  • edited September 30
    Looks like they have stopped the full match uploads, gutted. 

  • edited September 30
    jasper_T said:

    We could have done with more relaxation, more patience imo. Keep the ball for 5 minutes, we were 1-0 up at home. Same as QPR away, we were up and wanted to play quicker and higher risk. "Playing like the PL team" means controlling the game, not trying to score more and more goals all the time.

    A few of our players were tired not long into the 2nd half. That could be down to training too intensive, or like you say going for it too much and using up their energy early on.

    Martinez used to have the players just passing it around casually and frustrating the opposition, but not using much energy doing it, then every so often they would up the pace and make an attack. Maybe we do need to learn to relax more to keep the energy levels up.
    YJB07
  • rob_h said:
    jasper_T said:

    We could have done with more relaxation, more patience imo. Keep the ball for 5 minutes, we were 1-0 up at home. Same as QPR away, we were up and wanted to play quicker and higher risk. "Playing like the PL team" means controlling the game, not trying to score more and more goals all the time.

    A few of our players were tired not long into the 2nd half. That could be down to training too intensive, or like you say going for it too much and using up their energy early on.

    Martinez used to have the players just passing it around casually and frustrating the opposition, but not using much energy doing it, then every so often they would up the pace and make an attack. Maybe we do need to learn to relax more to keep the energy levels up.
    Rodgers as well.

    One of the reasons top sides get so many late goals is they tire teams out by having more of the ball. Players can only really rest (physically and mentally) in possession, defending takes a lot of effort if the opposition is even half decent at moving the ball about.
    rob_hWyn
  • One big difference from the Martinez/Sousa/Rodgers era is that in those days very few if any Championship teams played a European passing style like the Swans and other sides didn't really know how to approach playing us. Teams used to long balls being pumped into the "mixer" were simply bemused when the Swans were happy to knock it about for five minutes having a breather. It also helped that in the likes of Britton/Allen/Bodde/Rangel we possessed players at the base of the team who were very technically adept for Championship level.

    However the game has moved on and the high press is now employed by most sides in the division. Whereas ten years ago we could knock it about at the back with only a lone striker presenting any challenge we now frequently see sides with four or five players energetically pressing up as we try to build from the back. There is also a debate to be had as to whether Grimes/Fulton/Roberts are quite as good technically as their predecessors.

    Football tactics constantly evolve with each action provoking an equal and opposite reaction. Barcelona now have huge problems  in maintaining what had become a house-style. Whether this is due to the demise of Xavi and Iniesta and replacement by lesser mortals or whether the world simply found a way to combat their style is debateable - probably a bit of both.

    Football like life is constantly evolving and harking back with misty eyes to golden eras is rarely realistic. What is needed is some cold eyed analysis of where things are going right and wrong and what could be the next step.


    rob_hYJB07WynSeaJack
  • this is a big learning curve for Cooper. 

    let's not forget this is his first club job at this level.

    he'll not be used to the number of games in succession, and at this intensity.

    for me our issues are not that we dont play possession football, because I disagree that we play like Monk did - certainly in his 2nd season.

    where I see the issues is lack of pace in the final 3rd a lot of the time. And our failure to mix it up often enough. and by mix it up i mean move from the patient, passing football, to suddenly move the ball quicker, and use the space behind the fullback. 

    this is very much how Laudrup worked.

    I see us too often make too many touches, instead of moving the ball on first time. Byers, Rodon, Dhanda, Routs seem the exceptions to this rule. 

    The fullbacks for sure, should be studying videos of Angel. He was the expert in the team. Pablo another to watch and learn.


    rob_h
  • Mark
    Full backs.
    We have seen some movement from Bidwell overlapping with Celina, similar to the old Dyer/Angel partnership. 
    However, Saturday Naughton played like he had just had firm instructions from Sousa, do not go forward under any circumstances, we therefore lost any threat down the left, where we have had some success from Bidwell. 
    Not sure what to make of Bidwell at the moment, but at least he goes beyond Celina.

    As I stated, we are slipping back into a defensive mentality and style like we did under Monk, the football under Potter was a joy, the last three games have been very poor, no attacking intent, no width, no pace.
  • At both Bristol and Watford we made several clear cut chances which were not taken.
  • Jacktar said:
    Cad, Andrew 2 couldn't wait for a little blip, a drawn game to his is joyous so he can come on here to tell us how shite we are, he's not a fan so I'd ignore him.
    Well he is getting desperate if you call 2nd place after 9 games a blip
  • I think the lack of pace is a real issue, particularly when compared to the second half of last season when Dan James came into his own and sides were frequently defending ten yards deeper, often leaving more space between the lines. This was evident in pre-season and hopefully the likes of Garrick can step up to the mark as the season progresses.

    In terms of approach I do wonder about playing both Fulton and Grimes as two deep lying midfield players in home games when we want to take the initiative. I would be inclined to go back to Grimes and Byers with Celina ahead of them in the number 10 spot when we want to be on the front foot, and utilise Fulton when we need greater defensive solidity.

    YJB07Wyn
  • Jacktar said:
    Cad, Andrew 2 couldn't wait for a little blip, a drawn game to his is joyous so he can come on here to tell us how shite we are, he's not a fan so I'd ignore him.
    Well he is getting desperate if you call 2nd place after 9 games a blip
    2 points from the last 9 scoring 1 goal is at least a blip for a 2nd place team.
    Pablo
  • Andrew2 said:
    Mark
    Full backs.
    We have seen some movement from Bidwell overlapping with Celina, similar to the old Dyer/Angel partnership. 
    However, Saturday Naughton played like he had just had firm instructions from Sousa, do not go forward under any circumstances, we therefore lost any threat down the left, where we have had some success from Bidwell. 
    Not sure what to make of Bidwell at the moment, but at least he goes beyond Celina.

    As I stated, we are slipping back into a defensive mentality and style like we did under Monk, the football under Potter was a joy, the last three games have been very poor, no attacking intent, no width, no pace.
    I am not talking about overlapping. I am talking about playing the ball behind the opposition fullback into the massive space in behind, when they press up, as many have done at The Liberty. 

    but I 100% disagree that we are playing anything like Monk's team. 

    we certainly were not defensive at Watford. we were on the front foot for much of that game against a PL side. We wont always be. each team we face offers a different challenge.

    we dont have the express pace that Potter had, when he finally started using DJ on a regular basis. And his form only game to the fore after the Leeds fiasco.

    When comparing Cooper to Potter, let's just see where we are in January. because before then, Potter was a tinkerman, and our form and performances were up and down, as was to be expected with a new manager and a mostly young team.

    But he had pace in DJ and Jeff.

    Cooper has been hampered by Lulu being injured early, and Peterson taking longer to settle than we could have hoped for. We saw glimpses of that against Watford. but could also see why he isnt quite ready yet. Both signings missed pre-season, as did Garrick. 

    9 games in, I am quite happy where we are. Happy with the performances considering everything. and from what I have seen so far, very hopeful these will improve as the season progresses. and very happy where we are in the table.

    much rather have had a great start, points-wise, and knowing we can play better than be languishing mid-table or down the bottom, as you saw us being at the start of the season. As you think we will be EVERY season. 




  • We had a slow start possession wise but saw a stat earlier with us 3rd in possession overall behind Fulham and Leeds, so it has improved.

    Agree we lack pace and the balance going forward is wrong. Celina and Ayew cannot both play as wingers, we need natural width in there as well. 

    I also think it would help if Byers played as an 8. He doesnt look a great 10 to me but our best football last season was with Grimes/Byers as the double pivot. Fulton is decent enough but offers little to nothing on the ball. I dont think the pros he brings outweighs that huge negative. If Cooper wants that style of player I think Wilmot deserves a game or two as it doesnt look like be will play CB.

    We've got a very solid base to work from. Goalkeeper position sorted and no goals conceded from set pieces. Only 6 in 9 overall, it's very good. I think the football was much more attractive under Potter though but think Mark makes a fair point in having DJ as an outlet opens the game up.

    I would put Celina back at 10 and give him a proper run in the side there. Ayew one side and take your pick on the other. Prob Dyer but Peterson might offer something different and a proper goal threat. Ultimately, Borja has scored 4 goals from open play, all from crosses and 3 with his head. We need to work on getting more quality crosses into the box as we waste too many (although Surridge missed a golden chance to put the game to bed Sat from a cross)

    Its been a good start to the season and it's still very early. 
    YJB07
  • the one thing I would say is Cooper does seem frightened to sub Ayew. 


  • What's the saying can't make an omelette without breaking eggs?
    Manager needs to make mistakes to learn
    Yes at the moment it's gone a bit stodgy but it's not like we're being hammered every week
    I didn't think we would do this well so I'm not disappointed
    Baston is improving and we have players like Petersen Kalulu and Carroll to come in and offer something different
    Personally I'm not terribly interested in getting into the back room at the casino where everybody gets fleeced of huge amounts
    We had seven years of that
    All the money has done is create massive refereeing bias against almost all the smaller clubs
    Who needs it?
    Just enjoy the football and let's try not to project doom despondency and incompetence onto a manager who has to learn his trade in a very public arena
    Decent job so far but I have no expectations of promotion only of a financially sound club decent football and a decent finish
    Anything  else is a bonus
    I agree with your sentiments entirely Northern Swan. If Peterson is not up to speed yet then is it possible to play him in the Under 23's as you used to be able to play at least one or two overage players?. 
  • jasper_T said:
    Jacktar said:
    Cad, Andrew 2 couldn't wait for a little blip, a drawn game to his is joyous so he can come on here to tell us how shite we are, he's not a fan so I'd ignore him.
    Well he is getting desperate if you call 2nd place after 9 games a blip
    2 points from the last 9 scoring 1 goal is at least a blip for a 2nd place team.
    And the mighty Leeds are not having a blip, we are going to get times like this, we were flying in August, the international break usually put paid to that with the number we have out on international duty, we get our rhythm back and there's another IB
    Pablo
  • What's the saying can't make an omelette without breaking eggs?
    Manager needs to make mistakes to learn
    Yes at the moment it's gone a bit stodgy but it's not like we're being hammered every week
    I didn't think we would do this well so I'm not disappointed
    Baston is improving and we have players like Petersen Kalulu and Carroll to come in and offer something different
    Personally I'm not terribly interested in getting into the back room at the casino where everybody gets fleeced of huge amounts
    We had seven years of that
    All the money has done is create massive refereeing bias against almost all the smaller clubs
    Who needs it?
    Just enjoy the football and let's try not to project doom despondency and incompetence onto a manager who has to learn his trade in a very public arena
    Decent job so far but I have no expectations of promotion only of a financially sound club decent football and a decent finish
    Anything  else is a bonus
    I agree with your sentiments entirely Northern Swan. If Peterson is not up to speed yet then is it possible to play him in the Under 23's as you used to be able to play at least one or two overage players?. 
    the under 23's is  for developing young players. Peterson is a long term project. Part of the squad and we'll probably see more of him as the season progresses. Second in the table isn't so bad is it? we're now in danger of over expectation. Trust in what you see is my idea. not every result will go our way, but, we are competing in every game. We're dominating in most games, but there are no guarantees that every time we play we blow other teams away. The other sides also have good players, as Reading showed with Ejaria, Swift and Puscas, who were the best players on display on either side. You have to give credit to the opposition sometimes.

    jasper_T
  • I agree with that and that the 23s is for youngsters just didn't know if it was allowed if needed. I'm loving life in the championship and I've said before that a flirt with the playoffs and 2/3 youngsters coming through is OK by me. Garrick is one of those with Cabango looking like he will get game time as the season goes on! 
    Pablo
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