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Is a slide downwards inevitable?

By the end of today, and with results going against us, we could be eighth. With West Brom away next , even Scumduff could then be above us, and then with two home games and with such a dreadful home record, we could be below halfway by end of December. Really sad, as the Fulham match showed we can play, but the inconsistency, poor passing and inability to hit the net is stark. For the life of me I still cannot see why Declan John is not even figuring on the bench- what has he done to upset those at the top table?
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Comments

  • The slide is inevitable, we have owners who simply want to sell every asset they can, we have a manager who is at least two divisions out of his depth, players with no confidence and January around the corner where we will try again sell what little assets still remain.

    Birch in the background saying one thing to the supporters, whilst working on the owners agenda at the same time. More faces than Big Ben.
  • It's the same old song da da dee dee
    The owners have not sold every asset they could otherwise we would be a few players lighter
    I don't like them or US owners of UK football clubs generally
    But let's not get carried away with invective here
  • Andrew2,
    your dislike of Birch is common knowledge so exactly what has Birch said to the supporters, whilst working on the owners agenda at the same time. 
  • @Andrew2

    Whilst I agree with you about the owners - how people have the gall to defend them after the harm they've done to the club is beyond me - I can't agree with you on Birch. 

    He has done a lot of good work on and off the pitch since taking charge (though the jury is very much out on his selection of Cooper) and plugged many gaps in the infrastructure that Jenkins had neglected for a number of years. 
  • I don't think there are many, if not any posters on this site who are defending the owners.
  • I don't think there are many, if not any posters on this site who are defending the owners.
    Amen to that
  • Nope not me either
    Bad news they are
  • Colin

    I dislike Birch because he reflects everything that is wrong with this club, and everything that has been wrong here for 4 years now.
    He pretends to be doing something, whilst his main role is to do the opposite. The opposite is to sail Swansea City to oblivion with the blessing of the owners.
    He has made soundbites, said the right things, but done little or nothing to help us stabilise on the pitch. The club is available for somewhere around £5/£25m depending who you consider to be correct. I am in the £5m or nothing camp, with nothing being the most likely.
    We will sell any player that can be sold for any price in January,not renew contracts come July, and then bring freebies or free loans in for next season to make up the numbers.
    So, what is Birch doing to stop the slide Colin ?

    By the way, my dislike of Birch is ONLY because of what he has been asked to do to SCFC, I am sure the bloke is nice enough, he is simply doing his job, which he will be well rewarded for.



  • Andrew,
    your guess is as good as mine regarding what Birch is doing, but you have always leaned on the side of Birch being the son of Kaplan & Levien and whatever initiatives he has come out with you have attempted to ridicule, while all I can go with is to make parallels with what our previous chairman actually did.  

    How on earth you can say he reflects everything that is wrong with the club over the last four years when whatever he has said regarding trimming the club's finances was perfectly obvious to fans and initiated incentives that were never seen before. Perhaps you would have been happier if another businessman like Birch was brought in and put the club into administration straight away. It must have broken your heart at the end of last season to see the academy still holding Cat 1 status.

    As for not putting things right on the pitch perhaps you should also lump Leon into the same equation who had as much input in employing Cooper as Birch had, while also now fulfilling a full-time wage at the club. Personally I would like to think that a guy like Leon  would have walked away from the club if he suspected underhanded dealings by Birch was going on.

    There are a lot of players at the end of their contracts next May but perhaps apart from Dhanda, they can all be offloaded, while Rodon, Roberts, Celina and Byers are all contracted to 2022.
    SeaJack
  • edited December 2
    Andrew2 said:
    Colin

    I dislike Birch because he reflects everything that is wrong with this club, and everything that has been wrong here for 4 years now.
    He pretends to be doing something, whilst his main role is to do the opposite. The opposite is to sail Swansea City to oblivion with the blessing of the owners.
    He has made soundbites, said the right things, but done little or nothing to help us stabilise on the pitch. The club is available for somewhere around £5/£25m depending who you consider to be correct. I am in the £5m or nothing camp, with nothing being the most likely.
    We will sell any player that can be sold for any price in January,not renew contracts come July, and then bring freebies or free loans in for next season to make up the numbers.
    So, what is Birch doing to stop the slide Colin ?

    By the way, my dislike of Birch is ONLY because of what he has been asked to do to SCFC, I am sure the bloke is nice enough, he is simply doing his job, which he will be well rewarded for.


    Typical  views fed by personal obsessions.
    Unless of course there is some evidence in which case give details.Otherwise be confident enough to make it clear that views expressed are only personal supposition/assumption,


  • Moorlands
    My assumptions over the past 4 years have been correct. I have seen nothing at all from the owners or Birch to make me think otherwise. If you have, please explain to me what I have missed ?

    Has Messi signed and I missed it ? Have we returned to The Trust having some influence over the club ? Are the owners allowing The Trust to see the full financial position of the club ? Has Mr Birch met with The Trust in Rossis and leaked some documents ?


  • Colin

    Are you aware of the criteria that Leon/Birch where under when they looked for a new coach then ? Do you think for one moment they were told "We want the best man for the job" or was ....within a very limited wage added to the end of it ?

    What has Birch done Colin ? Apart from feeding the gullible with more half baked tales ?

    I was surprised the academy was still in place at the end of last season, so I had that one wrong, by about 6 months. 

    Seems to me the happy clappers do not like my views on Birch, the same as I was ridiculed fro my views on Jenkins and Morgan. 
  • Andrew2 said:
    Moorlands
    My assumptions over the past 4 years have been correct. I have seen nothing at all from the owners or Birch to make me think otherwise. If you have, please explain to me what I have missed ?

    Has Messi signed and I missed it ? Have we returned to The Trust having some influence over the club ? Are the owners allowing The Trust to see the full financial position of the club ? Has Mr Birch met with The Trust in Rossis and leaked some documents ?


    Well done Andrew at last you admit that you are propounding assumptions,that's progress ,keep it up .I hope you cheer up soon.
  • Andrew,
    Unless you ACTUALLY now what criteria Leon and Birch had to work with when looking for a manager, all you are saying is that in your opinion Cooper was a cheap option and not the right fit for the club while a legend like Leon has been taken for a ride.

    Over the years I have voiced my opinion consistently of Jenkins's unaccountability but Birch's decision making and initiatives have been those of a proper chairman of a football club and in line with his vast experience in the game. 
     
    The happy clappers didn't like what I posted in years gone by but that's what success brings to a football club's fans. 
  • I don't think there are many, if not any posters on this site who are defending the owners.
    Howver it wasnt that long ago that there were plenty who supported them.

    They know who they are. 

    Shysters. 
  • Andrew2 said:
    Colin

    I dislike Birch because he reflects everything that is wrong with this club, and everything that has been wrong here for 4 years now.
    He pretends to be doing something, whilst his main role is to do the opposite. The opposite is to sail Swansea City to oblivion with the blessing of the owners.
    He has made soundbites, said the right things, but done little or nothing to help us stabilise on the pitch. The club is available for somewhere around £5/£25m depending who you consider to be correct. I am in the £5m or nothing camp, with nothing being the most likely.
    We will sell any player that can be sold for any price in January,not renew contracts come July, and then bring freebies or free loans in for next season to make up the numbers.
    So, what is Birch doing to stop the slide Colin ?

    By the way, my dislike of Birch is ONLY because of what he has been asked to do to SCFC, I am sure the bloke is nice enough, he is simply doing his job, which he will be well rewarded for.



    Ok, you've lost me with some of this one Andrew.....

    First of all, could you please define "oblivion"?
    Secondly, why on earth would Birch's main role be to "sail Swansea City to oblivion with the blessing of the owners?"

    I would have understood, as I have previously stated myself if you'd said his main role was to stabilise the club financially and get into a saleable state. But you didn't say that. 

  • Jeff

    The owners will keep it afloat until the last parachute payment is in, and the last assets are sold. Birch is here to ensure we sell every asset we can, and try and find anyone to buy the club, in any state (in football squad terms). If not, a short while after the last drop of money has been squeezed, we are either sold for a minimum fee, or we will be in administration. 
    There is no no supreme exit plan after they have maximised the profit Jeff, its cut and run as fast as possible.If they get £5m they will take it, and be away, with the profit they wanted, and no liability.
    There are few assets left now  who have much a value.

    We are clearly heading downward in all aspects of the club Jeff, the playing squad is poor, and will become a shadow of what it is today by July. The crowds are dwindling, the interest in the club is at its lowest for a decade. We will struggle to sell 7000 season tickets next season.

    Oblivion and beyond Jeff is League 1 or 2, or even lower.

    If you consider my position to be doubtful, please explain what you see that makes you confident we are going to at least be a steady Championship club, I have sen nothing to show me the owners have any interest what so ever in SCFC.




  • Repeating something inaccurate ( "the owners will sell everything" argument ) doesn't make it true or even accurate comment about the past just because you keep repeating it
    It's an opinion, no more
    Look at the facts
  • Andrew2
    You say that you have seen nothing to show that the owners have any interest whatsoever in SCFC and yet when I asked you why they authorized a significant spend on the pitch this summer, you could offer no explanation. 
    It would appear that you are simply choosing events that suit your argument and ignoring those that don't. 
  • edited December 3
    Andrew2 said:
    Jeff

    The owners will keep it afloat until the last parachute payment is in, and the last assets are sold. Birch is here to ensure we sell every asset we can, and try and find anyone to buy the club, in any state (in football squad terms). If not, a short while after the last drop of money has been squeezed, we are either sold for a minimum fee, or we will be in administration. 
    There is no no supreme exit plan after they have maximised the profit Jeff, its cut and run as fast as possible.If they get £5m they will take it, and be away, with the profit they wanted, and no liability.
    There are few assets left now  who have much a value.

    We are clearly heading downward in all aspects of the club Jeff, the playing squad is poor, and will become a shadow of what it is today by July. The crowds are dwindling, the interest in the club is at its lowest for a decade. We will struggle to sell 7000 season tickets next season.

    Oblivion and beyond Jeff is League 1 or 2, or even lower.

    If you consider my position to be doubtful, please explain what you see that makes you confident we are going to at least be a steady Championship club, I have sen nothing to show me the owners have any interest what so ever in SCFC.




    Andrew - I really wouldn't say League 1 or 2 is "oblivion" - come on, that's where we've both watched the Swans most, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see us back down at League 1 level in the next 5 years.

    You've explained your view clearer in that response and if I were to paraphrase, you are not really saying his "role is to sail Swansea to oblivion" as you said in your previous post, rather that his role of rationalising club activities and assets could sail us to oblivion. 

    This is on the premise of your belief that the Americans are taking out profits from the club and maxing out everything they can , rather than my belief that they are taking out some consultancy fees and getting interest on their loans to the club.

    I think that Birch's actions are actually saving us from oblivion, rather than steering us towards it; clawing back financial stability from the excesses of the previous regime's twilight years. And the club will be more saleable if it is not in "oblivion" as you put it. Yes we could get relegated, but that's hardly oblivion.

    Regarding your other points, I am not at all confident of us being a steady Championship club - I'm confident that we won't go down this season but less so about next season because anything could happen in a year. I agree that crowds are falling and , on that basis, without the parachute money , we will in future be detrimentally competing against much bigger clubs than us with bigger support. So it will become more difficult. I also agree that the owners' interest is waning and that they won't be here for long. I've predicted for the last couple of years that they will sell in the Summer of 2020.


  • Did we sell someone recently? You'd think we'd had a fire sale the way you lot are carrying on.

    Truth is we've kept far too many high-earning players this season and will have to pay for it in January and next summer as the gamble hasn't paid off. Borja isn't in the team and Ayew isn't carrying us one-handed to the playoffs as many on here thought he would (how many thousand extra tickets was he supposed to sell to subsidise himself?). "Oh but a couple of new signings and maybe..." living in a fantasy world.
    garythenotrashcougar
  • Thank you @jasper_T

    I'm not the only one who remembers August vividly then, thank God. 

    "Ayew and Baston were sent to save us" so the story went. 

    After 3 league wins in 13 that looks more and more fanciful by the week. 
  • Jeff

    The issue I have with they are only taking fees is this

    1 Why do they not show The Trust the full financial position ? There is no reason other than something is not as they describe.

    2 These blokes are not dull, they make money, often from the misfortune of others. IF they are to be believed and are willing to sell for say £30m, do you honestly think, they will walk away with a loss ? Really, think about Jeff, do you honestly think these blokes saw the £40m from Gylfi, more recently the £35m from Dan and Oli sail back into the good ship Swansea City ?

    I have lost track of the incoming total of transfers since they began their purge, but it is significant. There is simply no way that have pumped all that lovely cash back into the club.

    I will say it again, and have said it 100 times, they were sold the plan that if we stay in the PL, they made money, if we went down, they made more.

    The club is now just about worthless, I think we all can agree on that, so nobody will pay anything North of £5/£7m for it. So, if that is the case, you really believe these geezers will walk away £50m plus light ?

    It is not a logical position Jeff, the only logical position is they have had the money back with bells on, they are waiting for the last drops of cash, and then off over the pond before you can say Huw Jenkins.

    And before the "they cant do that we will call the police/fraud/John Morse/HMRC etc brigade pipe up" they can do it if they want, they have nobody to answer to bare themselves.
    moorlands
  • Andrew2

    I have lost track of the incoming total of transfers since they began their purge, but it is significant. There is simply no way that have pumped all that lovely cash back into the club.

    How do you think they funded the outstanding instalments on the donkeys signed by HJ and the wages we still continue to pay some of them ?

    Oh, and before you start including me as one of the happy clapping yank lovers, I can assure you I'm not, as many of my previous posts would confirm. However, I do try to adopt a more balanced view than you appear to do.

    moorlands
  • 1 - They get more of the financial picture than standard shareholders are entitled to (monthly management accounts vs the annual statement). Companies don't open their full detailed accounts up to public viewing.

    2 - We spent all that money for Gylfi and more on players that season. Maybe you don't remember them because they were shit, but that doesn't mean the money's still in the account.
    moorlands
  • Once again yet another thread becomes a tit-for-tat debate over where the money's gone.

    When this happens, it's always worth reminding ourselves this. 

    The owners could stop all of this tomorrow, by removing the threat of an NDA and giving a 21% shareholder (the second biggest shareholder of the club) the basic respect it deserves, by granting it full access to the full accounts, and in so doing being completely transparent.

    If they have nothing to hide, as they regularly claim, they should be quite comfortable in doing that. But they haven't. And they won't. 

    In light of this, anyone who believes that nothing untoward is going on is living in cloud cuckoo land. 
  • Jasper/Deekay

    So, there we go, these guys are just fools, they cough up around £60m (not sure it was that much) conned by a couple of business whiz kids from Swansea.

    Jenkins and Morgan turned them over , then, when there is a sniff of some incoming cash, our new owners, as they are so kind,  pump it right down the funnel, and tell the good ship Swansea to keep steaming on. These guys are our saviours then ?

    It hits the rocks, , but there is still good cash floating about, bit of parachute, few transfers fees coming in, (even though they were sold at knock down prices) and our friends, no, heroes say stuff it , and stuff the share holders, we are here to first and foremost to pay Andre Ayew and others the jolly good wages they are on.

    We may take £30 in fees, bit of fuel, the odd flight but that apart, all this jolly cash belongs in the Hafod.Then, when we have saved the club, and only then, will we sell it to a fit and proper person, and lose some £30/£35/£50m.

    At the same time we are being super heroes, and saving planet Swansea and all who sail on her, we are going to hide our good deeds from the Supporters Trust just in case they think we are good guys and go and tell everyone we saved Swansea City.

    Wake up to reality please, these guys dislike the club, the area and anything to do with the Swans probably makes them feel sick after the stick they have had. (Not enough stick in my opinion)

    Take some advice please, they called it an investment, the club has seen no money, so the first clue is there. Lets go on, they invest to make a reasonable profit, for these guys, I would say spend £60m take back £100m over around three to four years would be seen as a poor return for 27 people in what turned out to be from a poor investment.

    If you really think they will walk away with a loss, when a container load of cash was floating about, you need help.


    SeaJack
  • When did I say they were our saviours ? Read the last sentence of my last post. So this is something else you've just made up. 
    I responded to a specific point you made by posing a simple question, which I note you haven't responded to. Just like the lack of explanation as to why they spent a shedful of money on the pitch. Very selective in choosing what you respond to. I wonder why ?

  • The idea that because they're Smart American Business People they can't possibly have bought a lemon and watched their investment blow up in their faces is childishly naive.

    They must have magically squirrelled out £30m from who knows where instead.
  • Jasper
    In my opinion, it is naive to think they will walk away £60m light, as they will struggle to find a buyer . Within 9 months we will know all the answers. At that point, I will be proved correct, I hope that we stop the rot at League 1 or 2.

    Deekay
    If they are not taking money out, and simply putting all income into the club, then by your theory they have saved the club surely ? Without (their) assets being sold, and put back into the club, as must be the case if you are correct, they have sold their assets to save the club. Thing is that few accept, they own SCFC, they own the paper clips, they own the balls, they own the players. Yes, it is a company, but they own the company,forget The Trust. 

    If you are correct, then they have saved the club by their actions, and their very kindness of not recouping a £60m outlay when they could. We should be singing their names loud and proud then ?

    There is no balanced position Deekay, they have either not taken any significant money, therefore saved us, or they have taken their money back with bells on, there is no half way point sorry.

     The pitch is something I covered previously, I understand the cost was £250k or there about, and was a necessity. I think we can move on from that one.
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