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So What

So what if we beat Cardiff next week, we could win 7 for all I care, it will not change the fact that Cooper is an utter disaster. He basically has the same players as Potter had, he has taken the whole squad backwards three years.

He needs to be marched out of the club now, tonight, along with the other waster Birch. Let Leon and Curt get on with it until the end of the season. 

We will not go down, as unbelievably there are a few teams worse than us. The players will be walking wrecks if Cooper gets at them for anther 4 months, he has done enough damage already.

Leon pick the team, and do what he can, Curt can by the fans a few pints, so Birch is not needed either for £500k a year.

We are in a desperate position, and beating Cardiff next week will change nothing.
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Comments

  • edited January 5
    Andrew

    Whilst I agree with you totally on Cooper's ability, or lack of it, we have to accept that both Leon and Curt were instrumental in his selection. Let's not forget Leon's continued support for him as stated just a few days ago. In Leon's case, that is his first forray into a managerial selection, so let's hope that it's an exponential learning curve
  • It is interesting (not disagreeing by the way) but Cooper seems capable of setting up a team to defend with resolution and structure. Particularly note the improvement in basic set piece defending and performances away from home that saw us unbeaten into December - So in his defence, and for balance..
    HOWEVER, He was recruited to play the Swansea way and produce possession football with attacking threat and develop our young players to support the mission.
    How many ticks in these 3 boxes could even the most sympathetic and patient judge give him?
    * Possession football has all but gone (a little under 40% against a bang average QPR). Players who were helping to control games under Potter look lost - particularly Byers, Celina and Grimes, and his tactical set up is narrow denying ourselves the opportunity to stretch play and create space. Players who were fluently passing and moving are now passing and watching. We re too easy to close down and too weak in the tackle to keep the ball.
    * Attacking threat has disappeared with our possession game. We have 8 wingers that he does not select (any of them) and sticks our two best attackers out wide, where they wander where they like and condense any available space. Ayew is clearly a real talent - but it is only the Cardiff game where he stumbled on the idea of putting your best player in the position where he can cause maximum damage. Celina has totally lost confidence, and I believe this is due to him being played out of position or dropped. 
    * Developing young players - he has picked  few for sure, but I am not seeing any of them playing better than thy did last year under Potter. We will pay a heavy price for the loss of Toshack and Waggy because Cooper seems to be busy uncaching the Swansea Way and replacing it with a mantra of resolute defending, winning battles and attacking narrowly through our best player (Ayew) on the scraps of possession that we are able to hold.
    In short Cooper's deficiencies are there for all to see, and the sooner he understands what is required from a Swansea manager in terms of style and entertainment the better!
    Even the dimmest manager would look at next weeks derby and revert to the shape that gave Cardiff so many difficulties at the Liberty? Captain obvious would pick the following - Captain Cooper anyone's guess!!
           Woodman 
    Roberts (2 of Cabango Bidwell VdH) Naughton
    Dyer/Kalulu Grimes Byers Celina Routledge
            Ayew
    Thank god it is 2 for 1 wings and ice cold beer for the NFL wild card games - off to the pub!!
    YJB07too_far_east
  • It’s still unbelievable that we are actually in a play off spot because some of the performances have been utter pooo . It could be a case of the worst performing team winning the play off final ..... unbelievable Jeff and Mark and Jasper and Colin and Andrew and anyone else I’ve missed  :D :D :D :D
  • Jackareme said:
    It is interesting (not disagreeing by the way) but Cooper seems capable of setting up a team to defend with resolution and structure. 
    Does he? We get cut open so easily every week. Weren't nearly so vulnerable from open play under Potter. Not been impressed with Cooper's defensive structure at all, even in August we were shipping chance after chance. Leeds, Derby, QPR and Preston could have each put 3 or more past us and we wouldn't have had much cause for complaint.

    You can't seriously be suggesting Bidwell's in contention for another game at CB, can you?

    Thought our attacking set pieces were awful today. Plan seemed to be to put it on top of their keeper, as if he was Nordfeldt. Dealt with them all easily. And they caused havoc with their attacking free kicks. 
    Pablo

  • Jackareme,
    for the life of me I can't honestly think that SC was hired to bring back the so called 'Swansea Way especially when one considers what we have been told the input Curt and Leon have put into the decision making. My honest belief is that SC has been installed to manage a club with very little financial help, perhaps over at least the next 12/18 months and a manager that has  impressed with his coaching ability with young grade teams. The obvious thing to draw from that assumption is that a part of Birch's brief is to settle the club's finances, and look for a sale of the club while utilising youngsters from the U23's or young loanees

    * possession as we have known it was never in the grand scheme of things while the persistent use of 4-3-3 should tell it's own tale of inflexibility.  Are comparisons in this season's play as against last season valid when one considers the quality of Dan and Oli that havn't been replaced. What concerns me is that whatever plan is decided on the consistency of players like Grimes is lacking while the ability of Celina to find space and create genuine opportunities consistently from in and around the penalty area is puzzling. Fulton will always be a bit part player but Byers's form is at most disappointing.

    * attacking from wing play is still there but in a totally different vein to last season. Celina and Ayew are two quite predictable wingers. Celina cuts onto his right and moves back or across while Ayew cuts onto his left and into a congested area. Bidwell tries to offer himself on an overlap but has no pace only a tidy left foot on occasion. In Ayew's case he mostly ignores his f/back overlapping therefore negating any positivity of a man moving into space and creating from the by-line. Celina hasn't lost confidence, just somebody who doesn't like the role he is playing and a player that doesn't concern himself in a fraction where physicality is required in contesting the ball.

    * developing young player-there are relatively few youngsters in the U23's who can do the same job as the ones Potter inherited while Jack Evans , Liam Cullen and Simon Paulet can feel disappointed in not being in today's squad. The U23's were not in a position to bring in the likes of Oli, Byers, Harries, Reid as in previous seasons, more of bringing through the best of the crop from the U18's instead. A hugely different prospect and something no doubt made Cam Toshack's decision to move. The U23' made their name when entering the academy structure employing wingers, Bray, Samuel, Owain Jones, Hedges, James and Garrick with Oli scoring for fun and Byers impressing in midfield, coupled with occasional consistent performances from the likes of Maric, Kieran Evans and when the Scottish trio of Kingsely, Fulton and Blair joined the squad, plus the defensive efforts of Keston Davies, Rodon and Harries. First year pros and youngsters from the U18's have been given an earlier baptism of U23 football and even more so, kids from the U15/16's sides have had a rude awakening on occasion against established U18 quality clubs. Having said that injuries to many young pros in the U23 squad have given numerous players from the young age group teams the opportunity to progress, namely Cam Evans, Josh & Jake Thomas, Rhys Webb and Al-Hamedi.


    JackaremeYJB07Webmaster
  • Looks like Brewster is coming tomorrow.
  • jasper_T said:
    Jackareme said:
    It is interesting (not disagreeing by the way) but Cooper seems capable of setting up a team to defend with resolution and structure. 
    Does he? We get cut open so easily every week. Weren't nearly so vulnerable from open play under Potter. Not been impressed with Cooper's defensive structure at all, even in August we were shipping chance after chance. Leeds, Derby, QPR and Preston could have each put 3 or more past us and we wouldn't have had much cause for complaint.

    You can't seriously be suggesting Bidwell's in contention for another game at CB, can you?

    Thought our attacking set pieces were awful today. Plan seemed to be to put it on top of their keeper, as if he was Nordfeldt. Dealt with them all easily. And they caused havoc with their attacking free kicks. 
    Oops never write when angry - Bidwell at CB over my dead body - I meant Wilmot (of course) good spot!
    too_far_east
  • Colin,

    there were times in the last couple of games, and a few times during the season, where we have seen the return of the "Swansea Way".

    They have been too few by far, and more down to selection of the right players - and having those players available to Cooper.

    Charlton home (1st half) and away, where Yan Dhanda played centrally and was always available to receive a ball from central midfield, wide players and 9.

    That coupled by a 9 who can receive and lay off intelligently - Borja as opposed to Surridge.

    And even in the disaster that was yesterday, when Kalulu esp, was on the wing, and Roberts overlapping alongside him. Roberts got into some very promising situations.

    Hopefully from now on, we will see more of Kalulu on the wing, and better play on that side of the pitch.

    What we do on the other side, and what we do with a player like Celina, who just doesnt seem to want to be here. I dont buy the excuse that he doesnt like playing on the left. Because when given the opportunity in the middle he's not seized the chance to shine there either. His best performances - and there haven't been many - have been on that left hand side.  

    The biggest problem Cooper faces is how to include Ayew, when we are paying his massive wages. He is a goal threat, and a leader to a still inexperienced team. But I am still convinced we look better balanced when he is not there - not even at 9. Borja's hold up and link play is better than AA's, IMO.

    deekay
  • Thanks Mark. 
    As you know, the limited amount of occasions seeing the players in the 'flesh' this season has resulted in few matchday comments from myself and the shambles at Loftus Road yesterday no doubted prompted my post yesterday after reading some posts from certain posters who I have felt were quite accurate in their usual match assessment. 


  • I think its out wide we are lacking, last season we had DJ on fire with others slotting in on the opposite flank as and when, it made Grimes look Hoddle'esque, now when he looks for a similar outlet, we don't have it, and it heaps the pressure on. Garrick was the natural successor but unfortunately, he's been injured.
    Jackareme
  • jollyboy said:
    I think its out wide we are lacking, last season we had DJ on fire with others slotting in on the opposite flank as and when, it made Grimes look Hoddle'esque, now when he looks for a similar outlet, we don't have it, and it heaps the pressure on. Garrick was the natural successor but unfortunately, he's been injured.
    I'm more concerned about the engine room, myself. We lack a Bodde/Britton workhorse who can create as well as break up attacks. I like both Grimes and Byers but I don't think either of them has the full set of skills required for that role. I don't think Fulton is going to develop into what we need and Carroll definitely won't.

    Jackareme
  • Cadleigh said:
    jollyboy said:
    I think its out wide we are lacking, last season we had DJ on fire with others slotting in on the opposite flank as and when, it made Grimes look Hoddle'esque, now when he looks for a similar outlet, we don't have it, and it heaps the pressure on. Garrick was the natural successor but unfortunately, he's been injured.
    I'm more concerned about the engine room, myself. We lack a Bodde/Britton workhorse who can create as well as break up attacks. I like both Grimes and Byers but I don't think either of them has the full set of skills required for that role. I don't think Fulton is going to develop into what we need and Carroll definitely won't.

    Grimes was one of the most prolific midfield tacklers in the division last season, and his individual defensive output has improved this one (more tackles, interceptions, blocks). But defending isn't a one-man job. If the structure isn't right even the most rose-tinted hero of the past would struggle.
    Pablo
  • Agreed @jasper_T - the other problem we have defensively is actually nothing to do with defending (Or at least at a tangent). With Potter's team we were comfortable on the ball and valued possession. This amounted to us having often somewhere near 70% of the play. Now we know that this does not guarantee a win, because there are many ways to skin a cat - however:
    It is harder to play without the ball than with it. Chasing, closing down and tracking runners is hard on the legs and makes concentration difficult. For the team in possession it allows you to rest and regain your shape protecting you against counter attacks.
    At the moment we have lost the ability to retain the ball, and we are typically getting turned over in areas of the pitch where we are vulnerable and do not have time to get our positioning right. I see a drop off in the technical levels (Grimes Carroll Byers and Celina in particular) but we also have players that are over ambitious in their play, resulting in cheap giveaways. A few examples:
    Think Bidwell with his automatic clips down the line (Pavlov's dog with tunnel vision) 
    Ayew running into cul de sacs and ignoring the overlapping full back. 
    Peterson taking people on and shrugging his shoulders if he is unsuccessful
    Surridge not strong enough to hold off defenders and keep the ball etc.

    Contrast that with what we saw from Nathan yesterday (certainly early on) short easy passes to Connor and quick bursts into space to make angles for the next pass. 
    We had less than 40% possession against QPR - with a Potter team it would have been 60+ even away from the Liberty. On straight maths this is a 50% increase in the opposition opportunity to threaten. The areas that the likes of Peterson, Carroll, McKay, John etc were giving the ball away just exacerbates our issues.

    If ever there was a team that needs to go back to basics in formation tactics and preparation for games it is US!!
  • Jackareme,

    "We had less than 40% possession against QPR - with a Potter team it would have been 60+ even away from the Liberty."

    Is it a true representation considering the team that was selected?
  • Yeah - probably not Colin. However, we should be developing the team to play a possession based game, and with Grimes Carroll, and Mckay we have 3 players whose strength should be in the technical aspect of the game. If not passing the ball what else do these 3 truly offer?
    Also we had 2 full backs with full international caps on either side. You can argue percentages, but I am sure that Potter would have got more control of the game out of these 5 alone than we had yesterday.
  • We had 44% against Palace with the kids last season.
    JackaremePablo
  • We were also playing at home v Palace and the possession stats would be higher
  • Colin,

    there were times in the last couple of games, and a few times during the season, where we have seen the return of the "Swansea Way".

    They have been too few by far, and more down to selection of the right players - and having those players available to Cooper.

    Charlton home (1st half) and away, where Yan Dhanda played centrally and was always available to receive a ball from central midfield, wide players and 9.

    That coupled by a 9 who can receive and lay off intelligently - Borja as opposed to Surridge.

    And even in the disaster that was yesterday, when Kalulu esp, was on the wing, and Roberts overlapping alongside him. Roberts got into some very promising situations.

    Hopefully from now on, we will see more of Kalulu on the wing, and better play on that side of the pitch.

    What we do on the other side, and what we do with a player like Celina, who just doesnt seem to want to be here. I dont buy the excuse that he doesnt like playing on the left. Because when given the opportunity in the middle he's not seized the chance to shine there either. His best performances - and there haven't been many - have been on that left hand side.  

    The biggest problem Cooper faces is how to include Ayew, when we are paying his massive wages. He is a goal threat, and a leader to a still inexperienced team. But I am still convinced we look better balanced when he is not there - not even at 9. Borja's hold up and link play is better than AA's, IMO.

    saying that a player doesn't want to be here is harsh...Celina is by far our most skillful player.. The trouble with this forum is you have to be a machine to play for Swansea...a robot that has to perform at the highest calibre....you are not one to normally project in that way Mark. I find these pages to be full of bile and bullshit. 
    We've hit a bad patch and it is with a decent support that you find your way out of it. As fans we are failing because there is so much hyperbole and ranting going on the real truth gets completely obscured. 
    I do despair at the lack of loyalty to the club. Negativity and booing will destroy any chance we have. We need to back young players....they are human, we do not know the ins and outs of the daily experience....but I tend to trust a professional like Wayne Routledge, who recently spoke up for the positive things going on. 
    People are not very bright, all kneejerk nonsense over a cup loss. Cue the usual knockers....who have plenty of things to say in criticism but nothing constructive to actually help the team, beyond telling the manager what he should do in their opinion.
    I'm really glad I didn't come on here to hear the usual bull when we lose. It is embarrassing  how little balance or understanding is allowed before the usual crew shout you down with insults. The world seems full of shitty aggressive types who go all tribal when they don't get their own way. Sad indictment of the times, and one I'm thoroughly sick of.
    jasper_T
  • jasper_T said:
    Jackareme said:
    It is interesting (not disagreeing by the way) but Cooper seems capable of setting up a team to defend with resolution and structure. 
    Does he? We get cut open so easily every week. Weren't nearly so vulnerable from open play under Potter. Not been impressed with Cooper's defensive structure at all, even in August we were shipping chance after chance. Leeds, Derby, QPR and Preston could have each put 3 or more past us and we wouldn't have had much cause for complaint.

    You can't seriously be suggesting Bidwell's in contention for another game at CB, can you?

    Thought our attacking set pieces were awful today. Plan seemed to be to put it on top of their keeper, as if he was Nordfeldt. Dealt with them all easily. And they caused havoc with their attacking free kicks. 
    we don't get cut open every week. that is just tosh. you need to stop exaggerating and maybe try to put aside your arrogance and see the true picture. 
    jasper_T
  • @Pablo you make a good point about being supportive of young players - and yes they are not machines.
    However, this is an industry where the rewards are high and the consequences of failure are stark. When you put yourself out there as a soccer player you have to accept the criticism and plaudits in equal measure.

    I have many time waxed lyrical about Celina - and still rate him an exceptional talent, which makes his current level of performance doubly frustrating. I think it is legitimate to point out performances that are way below potential - not over a single game, but over half a season. He needs to face up to this and equally so does Cooper who is obviously not setting the boy up to succeed.

    Saying nothing while player after player consistently underperforms in the hope of being supportive is not the answer. If he (or Byers/Grimes/Roberts) need time out of the firing line to recapture their form so be it - but while they wear the jersey they bear the responsibility to perform. that is the industry they chose for themselves.
    SeaJackdeekay
  • Fair enough Jackareme, It's wild exaggeration and a tendency to get very negative when the usual suspectsget the bit between their teeth. It's counter productive and also inaccurate. I just don't see how loss of form is such a crime. It happens to lots of players. We need to help young players. Can you imagine what it is like with keyboard warriors these days on twitter? the world has gone a bit mad. I agree Celina has under performed but I don't see that as a permanent situation, but one that can change at anytime. We are far too quick to criticise, and often it is not even warranted. 
    Jackareme
  • Here we go, ...they are not robots....we cant expect them to perform every week...why on earth not ? They are  well paid for their age. I understand some of the younger ones are on around £150k before they are 21/22 years old.

    Now, in our industry, we have individuals earning that, but they are top people, they perform at their best every day, not just once or twice a week, every day. If they do not, the consequences are not good for them.Often 6 days a week, often 12/14 hour days.

    In all walks of life, lets take a surgeon, under pressure, earning say half of what our young players are on, but they must be at their best every day, even when tired !! Isn't that a footballers favourite excuse these days ? Flipping tired !

    Anyone fancy having some open heart surgery with a surgeon that cant be bothered as our players were on Saturday ?

     Lets say you die because the surgeon couldn't be bothered to do his best ? Your poor wife finds out, she clatters and criticises the surgeon because of his lack of effort, her husband is dead, the surgeon needs to take the stick, he will lose his job...but,according to Pablo, we should just encourage the little darlings, no matter if they give any effort or not.

    Lack of skill can be excused, lack of effort never.

    Join the real world Pablo you idiot, if you take the money, you take what comes with it.
  • Pablo you mentioned “ Loss of form isn’t a crime “ which is probably correct but at this moment in time “ loss of form “ at present is like a virus going round the players as performances lately are not what they were compared with last year . Celina Grimes Roberts Byers Carroll Dyer Fulton to name a few have caught it at the same time . As have many more ... but is it a case of bad managing or management that is the cause of it and a lack of motivation from Cooper and co ??
  • enaitch
    No idea what you do, but go to work and sit around, do nothing for a few days, when you boss says whats up, just say I have lost form boss, I may do better next month, see what he says.
    PabloSeaJack
  • edited January 8
    Andrew2 said:
    Here we go, ...they are not robots....we cant expect them to perform every week...why on earth not ? They are  well paid for their age. I understand some of the younger ones are on around £150k before they are 21/22 years old.

    Now, in our industry, we have individuals earning that, but they are top people, they perform at their best every day, not just once or twice a week, every day. If they do not, the consequences are not good for them.Often 6 days a week, often 12/14 hour days.

    In all walks of life, lets take a surgeon, under pressure, earning say half of what our young players are on, but they must be at their best every day, even when tired !! Isn't that a footballers favourite excuse these days ? Flipping tired !

    Anyone fancy having some open heart surgery with a surgeon that cant be bothered as our players were on Saturday ?

     Lets say you die because the surgeon couldn't be bothered to do his best ? Your poor wife finds out, she clatters and criticises the surgeon because of his lack of effort, her husband is dead, the surgeon needs to take the stick, he will lose his job...but,according to Pablo, we should just encourage the little darlings, no matter if they give any effort or not.

    Lack of skill can be excused, lack of effort never.

    Join the real world Pablo you idiot, if you take the money, you take what comes with it.
    You’re such a moron, carry on though because come a change back to winning ways you’ll be gone. And we’ll all breathe a sigh of relief. By the way, you’re on the right in the old gits photo. Now get back to your dungeon!
    Steve
  • Heaven Forbid actually supporting a team through thick and thin.... in the play off spot atm with all the upheaval for me is punching. I’m not sure what some people’s expectations were at the start of the season but maybe they were far too high. We aren’t perfect, players and managers make mistakes. At every club in the world. Don’t expect perfection in others unless you are perfect yourself....
    Pablojasper_TmoorlandsSteve
  • I have a different reading to @Andrew2 on some of this. Agreed with him that lack of effort and "cant be bothered" is a sackable offence. However, that is largely not what I am seeing. Park the QPR game for a moment and disregard McKay and Carroll - the rest seem to be trying hard by and large, and I have given Cooper credit for the togetherness of the squad in previous posts.
    What I am seeing is players who are not necessarily suited to the tactical approach and do not seem to have the same level of clarity on their own role (compared to under Potter). This causes some confusion and loss of confidence. You cannot castigate players for either of these things - particularly young ones.
    To take Andrew's example I am not seeing a surgeon who cant be bothered to do his best, I am seeing a cardio vascular surgeon asked to repair a complex fracture or remove a brain tumour. The fault for this lies with the hospital managers who are deploying their resources incorrectly.
    Of course one of the consequences of this is eventually a talented surgeon will start to look for other employment opportunities, and who would blame him? Think Celina in this instance??? If/When this starts to happen Cooper will be a dead man walking, but I don't see it yet (with the possible exception of Celina)

  • Andrew 2

    Why on earth do you want to compare Footballers and sport  to life and death decisions  made by surgeons ,
    Could you not think of something  more appropriate  ?
    PablomoorlandsSteve
  • Malc said:
    Andrew 2

    Why on earth do you want to compare Footballers and sport  to life and death decisions  made by surgeons ,
    Could you not think of something  more appropriate  ?
    Why?Because he’s an odious miserable git who gets tumescent when he’s having a good old whine :D
    Steve
  • Pablo said:
    Malc said:
    Andrew 2

    Why on earth do you want to compare Footballers and sport  to life and death decisions  made by surgeons ,
    Could you not think of something  more appropriate  ?
    Why?Because he’s an odious miserable git who gets tumescent when he’s having a good old whine :D
    Pablo's fantasies turning sexual now. 

    It's very strange how he can't discuss his actual opinions and instead focuses on what the people he disagrees with must be like/doing behind the scenes (usually some conspiracy or, as above, getting sexual gratification from being miserable?)
    garythenotrashcougar
This discussion has been closed.