Club Ownership and Business Model

This thread basically contains the posts that took the Summer Transfer Thread totally off topic!

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Comments

  • US owners? Never fancied the idea and said so repeatedly at the time

    Is there a successful US-owned club apart from Liverpool? ( who seemed to do pretty well under previous ownership)

    Don't think so

    Model is generally more like Sunderland under Ellis Short than anything

    I applaud the financial control but whoever said last season was the best opportunity we will have for some time of automatic promotion got it dead right IMHO

    To engage with club-building ( fans management and owners as one) and team building is alien to US owners typical model, where fans groups are viewed as militant trade unions who get in the way of business

    Model is much more "let's join the European Super (rich) league but if we can't do that let's take a regular big dividend for the owners whatever the team is doing and if we can't do that let's not spend anything at all"

    Takes a different stance to do a Norwich

    SeaJack
  • Villa are finally showing signs of improvement under American ownership @northernswan2 - but your point is well made.

  • re statements from the club: patience grasshopper is my answer to that.

    I'm glad they haven't pumped money into the club. no such thing as a free lunch as they say. I don't remember any hyperbolic pronouncements by them either.

    you're no differnt to any fan. there's a kind of mob mentality in football and the dynamic of the mob is to feed each other myths sometimes.

    and stuff like 'take it to the next level' gets reinforced by other additions that don't really exist or are assumptions or small exaggerations that grow, get bandied about between one another, then turn into fact.

    I think though it's time to put it aside. I say they haven't the empathy because they're Americans and don't know the history of our club like we do. Not really a criticism. But I don't think they're some evil machiavellian devils either. Obviously this is not the popular opinion but it's my true reaction. I just can't be bothered to carry around grudges. Life is too short.

    The worst you can say they said was 'take it to the next level' but fair enough....we got relegated! But I also remeber HJ saying the board then couldn't cover debts of cash flow shortfalls....so the idea of selling to the US consortium was to cover those holes in the finances. which they have done.

    since relegation they've sanctioned the hiring of Potter and SC, and let Curt and Leon find the right candidates. Can you imagine Abramovich doing that? would never happen. so I look on all that favourably.

    I like the hands off approach. bit sad they are so hated but there you go.

    If we get promoted next season, that might change. time the great healer and all that. G'day Pete☺️

  • edited June 9

    'I applaud the financial control but whoever said last season was the best opportunity we will have for some time of automatic promotion got it dead right IMHO' @ Northern Swan

    no team has a god given entitlement to get automatic promotion. In Fact amongst the bookies we were well down the pecking order. We very nearly did get that automatic spot but for running out of steam and Watford having an inspired run. Things aren't just black and white.

    We should be proud of our players last season....it was hectic. They did us proud, and we didn't quite make it.

    I think actually with that experience and being one year more mature, we might actually be better placed this season....but nothing is ever guaranteed. We're a blame culture, especially in football. If we don't get our own way ie winning and getting promoted, we go looking for culprits. human nature isn't that commendable in those circumstances. The board copped the flak over relegation. and it'll be someone else if we don't have a good season in the next one. Manager or player, or board or a combination of all three. That's how it goes always. The cult of winning. Realism and nuance aren't in the armoury of the average fan.

    Knowing all those things, I never indulge in the usual fans reaction.

    My understanding is that 'soccer' in the US is much more family oriented so your stuff about super leagues and crony capitalism is not based in reality but a projection, on your part...they haven't been taking dividends either, so that's another myth. you see how this hate fest against the board is mostly made up stuff by fans?

    they are just unfounded suspicions most of the time.

  • Read it again - I was talking about the prevalent US ownership group behaviour not necessarily ours, or ours alone

    The US model is evident in numerous other clubs and on the whole - Liverpool aside - it hasn't worked

    As I said, I applaud the financial control - we shouldn't go bust with the current ownership

    Crony capitalism? Liverpool Arsenal Man U all wanted to join the ESL and embarrassed themselves with their own fans

    That is not a projection sorry that was widely reported

    Not saying the Owners won't take a dividend or a sale when a profit is to be made is like saying they are not in business - which they clearly are, otherwise we'd be a charity not a football club

    It's going to be harder next year not because of anything other than money

    The parachute payments system - whilst looking after contractual commitments to players - actually biases promotion toward the relegated teams

    An ownership group more in tune with that might have looked to keep the best of the relegated squad - Fabianski Fernandes Jordan Ayew etc and pruned more selectively like Norwich did

    SeaJack
  • thanks for the "usual supporter tag"

    we did not go up last season in my opinion because our American owners did not put any monies into the club to ensure we got there, Even You could suerly see we needed a striker and we are led to belive that Mr Cooper and the scouting team had one who was available for around 2.5 Million and they the owners said no, also again in my opinion the squad was not quite big enough so the manager could spread the load so to speak with players he thought could do the job and whilst would love to be proven wrong with the parachute payments gone unless the owners put monies in cannot see us getting to the play offs

    Re Potter again just my opinion .he came in because the payments were there from prem,when he could see no REAL intent to back him he walked .Cooper the same unless they are prepared to back him with NOT outragus money he will say adios

    Unfortunately whoever is the coach/ manager next season will have little to work with new player wise but as i say would love to be proven wrong

    all the names bandied about is just paper talk and agent "doing their thing" the proof of the pudding will be at the end of NEXT season

    bigoak
  • Pablo - With all due respect your lumping us all together as just typical fans who don’t know better really is the most insulting, offensive comment that you could possibly make.

    Your spat with Gary is one thing but you don’t do yourself any favours by slinging the mud at all and sundry on this forum.

    Let’s face facts here. You don’t know me or any other poster on here from Adam. Heck we don’t even know each other’s names let alone what kind of fans we are.

    The typical fan will have good days and bad days with their respective beloved clubs much like the clubs themselves. They will either praise the club/team to the high heavens or vent their spleen accordingly. My glass is sometimes half empty/half full, and at other times brimming over the edges or bone dry. Such is the life of a fan. You can’t seriously expect us to believe that you don’t sometimes have any negative feelings about how the club is being run both on and off the pitch? You say that the only time that you felt negatively about the club us during the Tony Petty days. Why only then and not at other deeply troubling times relating to the Swans? There have been plenty of them I’m sure.

    As for the owners we will have to agree to disagree. I don’t believe that they are a good fit for the club based on their track record especially when you compare it to the previous owners. It took them only eight years to take us from a backwater club in the 2nd division to the heights of the Premier League. Not only that but they kept us there for 5 consecutive years and delivered European football off the back of a fabulous Caraboa cup win in 2013 and an 8th placed finish despite the sacking of Laudrup in the 2014/15 season.

    It took only 2 years for the current owners to relegate us from the Premier League and they have failed to return us there now for the 3rd season running. This will have been their 5th year in charge now and they are fast running out of years to match or improve on the previous owners incredible list of achievements.

    My hope for the club is as always that promotion is to the Premier League is achievable once more. My fear is as it was when they came on board, that these owners are simply not suitable for the task ahead. Time will tell as ever.

    deekayPetegarythenotrashcougarenaitchJackareme
  • ah well that's different. but it's not just americans in that context...it's any billionaire owner..whether it be russian oligarch, Saudi oil princes, american businessmen, or any other nationality. The common theme huge wealth and profit with them of course, notyhing really to do with nationality, more to do with, for me, the morality of where that money comes from.The Swans would never be able to be invited to that party and it's a whole other topic.

  • @Seajack. you have your opinion, I have mine and n'er the twain shall meet it seems. you demand success...like we're entitled and privileged. I don't. For the last 2 seasons we've come very close, yet that's not enough for your demands of success.

    You blame the owners. I don't. if HJ and the old board had taken us down...the song would have been the same, only directed at different people. small club like ours were and always will be in the PL relegation pool from the off. We'll never be eating at the top table. seems you don't understand that like a lot of fans.

    Do I have negative feelings about things off the pitch I know nothing of?....no I don't. what other deeply troubling times have there been apart from Petty? there aren't any of that scale. so no never have spent too much time carrying round bitterness. Of course I feel bad when we lose. Hate it. but I never cast around to blame someone be it player or manager. I have it ingrained in me that in a contest between two teams there are winners and losers

    I don't let rumour or majority opinion sway me. you're right I don't know you, you don't know me.....yet you know exactly what the owners are and their motives! that's called hypocrisy.

    Go up and down the country and you'll find there are fans railing against owners for not delivering success. it's common and part of the tribal aspect. doesn't make it clever or logical. It is just the way it is.

  • @Pablo

    Now I will agree with you for once - of course the current ownership aren't as bad as Petty. Nothing really could be.

    But should that be the barometer for our ambitions and expectations?

    "Oh well, at least it's not as bad as it was under Petty"

    Jeez. Is that how low our self esteem is a club and as a fanbase?

    Well, fair enough if that works for you, but for me, we've got to be a bit better than that and as supporters surely we are entitled to ask for a bit more than just being happy not having an owner who tried to make all our senior players redundant overnight.

    The day we start defining ourselves by that we may as well all pack up and go home!

    SeaJack
  • Pablo,

    would your thoughts on morality be any different if Chinese investors were interested in taking over the club, and as for saying there had been no worse troubling moments when Petty took over the club, what about the time in 1985 when the gates were locked, or about the dark days when the Vetch Field had to be sold to keep the club running or even further back when the 'Ginger' group of businessmen in Swansea registered their interest in becoming directors.

    The truth of the matter is that the wolf has been barking at the club's door many times and the majority of fans would welcome financial help whoever they may be to keep 'their club' going.

    enaitchSeaJack
  • Potter went to further his career,. no other reason. For SC it would be the same. He loves it here and has delivered, yet the fans want rid of him. that is more likely to drive him away than the owners.

    we had a striker lined up in Obafemi and he had a serious injury.

    We missed promotion in the play-off final. Would a 2.5 million rated player have made the difference? Good strikers don't usually come that cheap, so probably not. plenty of teams play with a false 9 including Man City. Toney cost Brentford 11 million...that figure would have put us in debt. You're talking about buying success, and we know that can backfire and leave you in administration.

    I tend to think that speculation and going to the usual common denominator of the hatefest against the owners accompanies any perceived setback.

  • if Chinese investors took over i'd feel the same as if they were any nationality. nothing. Why Chinese Colin? I know it's fashionable to dislike the Chinese now but having travelled there and the far east in general...they are much nicer people generally than western people. Unless you've been there you only have propaganda to go on.

    I stopped watching football in the 80's because of the racism and violence on the terraces, so don't know about the 'locked gates' plus I lived in London at the time and without the internet had no idea what was going on.

  • Interesting idea of what is the right barometer to judge by

    For me it's-

    • local ownership ( and if we can find it, local talent ) and a sensitivity to fan expectations
    • attractive football
    • acceptance we are not in the big league but might have moments in the sun if we're lucky and well enough run
    • a big focus on enjoying player development ( our own wherever possible not loans)
    • an acceptance that we are all unable to buy much unless we sell big
    • Financial control comes before buying players


    moorlands
  • spot on, but that was the scenario the fans rejected. They wanted new ownership and a fat wallet. Now flip flop, they don't. the fickle world of fans.

  • Pablo,

    that’s part of the problem, there was never a fat wallet!

    Unless you’re talking about Jenkins, Dineen etc

  • Villa was very lucky that they were promoted (and they managed to survive last season) when they were otherwise it would have got very interesting for them.

    Grealish would have had been sold (and likely many others)

    Bought well this season (not so much the year before)

  • Pablo,

    no doubts there are more good than bad people in every country while my mentioning the Chinese was to indicate to you that where money is to be made the Chinese are there alongside all counties.

    Toney's fee was an initial £5M plus add-ons which would go nowhere near the figure you quoted.

    If you want to know the real facts about the football club you support and educate yourself of the years you were away from Swansea why not nip down to the central library and read through Professor David Farmer's books of the Swans.

  • edited June 10

    I actually knew David Farmer, but confess not read his books. My former partner's Dad was Bryan Lile who did lots of research for Mr Farmer. And this is the official text on Toney:'On 31 August 2020, Toney completed a medical and signed for Championship club Brentford on a five-year deal. The fee was reported to be in the region of £5 million and around £10 million with add-ons' so sorry I exaggerated it by 1 million - my bad.

    Also well aware of the Chinese becoming the major financial power in the world...and socialist too! that's why we are being taught to hate the Chinese not some human rights bull. Remember if the West cared for human rights we'd not have a thing to do with Israel or Saudi Arabia...and Assange wouldn't be in prison. The West are the worst human rights abusers in the world without peer. I'd welcome an Asian owner as much as any country. It's the origins of that money that would be my concern.

  • @Llanjack. yes that's the main gripe against the owners...but we are solvent and one of the few clubs to actually make profit, albeit small.

    What the fans wanted from them and still do, is success by buying it. That's really the root of all the tantrums about the owners.

  • I find it bizarre that a so called fan of the Swans tells us that we would have lost WW 2 without the Russians in1945 but reckon he can’t remember Malcolm Struel Dougie Sharp Silver Shield et all from the club in the 80s etc when we were nearly wound up in the high court

    Arch_Stanton
  • Thank you Pablo for your reply to my post. Yes you’re right about differing opinions based on the expectations of the fan base.

    I became a fan of my local team the moment that I saw them for the first time at the Liberty playing sumptuous free flowing football.

    At the time I was only two years in from becoming a football convert due to a friend of mine introducing me to it via his favourite club/team. It just so happened to be Arsenal during their Invincible's season and you could tell what an incredibly special group of players they had as a collective unit and as individuals.

    Imagine how amazed and stunned I was when watching the Swans for the first time at the Liberty in 2005 to find them emulating for the most part on the pitch what the Arsenal team were doing. Needless to say it was a lightning bolt moment for me and I’ve been a passionate fan ever since.

    The previous owners were a very canny lot who, against all the odds took a League 2 club that just about avoided relegation into the Conference League, and turned it into a full blown Premier League outfit. They also gave us a Carabou Cup trophy in the trophies cabinet and Europa League football for the first time ever in the clubs history.

    What was achieved in that decade of football was truly remarkable. But it was achievable, our CV proves that. No football club has a God given right to be the best of the best at any given time, on that I agree with. However, my take on the Swans, both team and club is that I want to see them thrive and rise up the ranks not go down as which as you know was what happened in the Eighties old First Division. Surely that is what all fans want for their club/team ultimately. To be the best of the best and, if they fall short to be at their very best as much as is humanly possible.

    I can’t fault the team or manager much, although there are issues with the performance side of things for me at present. The owners are a different story however. For me, they have failed in their remit to take us to the next level. Worse still they got us demoted from the top tier in a very short space of time and have yet to prove that they have the credentials or ability to return us there. There is nothing special about these owners that can be compared to the previous board.

    I await a change in fortunes as I’m forever hopeful about the club so all I can say is let’s hope that lightning can strike thrice and we return to what I feel is where we can belong. As has been proven in the past on a footballing level, whatever is thrown at the club it seems to be able to bounce back and go again. It appears to thrive against any adversity that befalls it and long may that continue.

  • The David Farmer book is a very good read

    In particular it reminds you that we have always been a selling club trying to stay solvent, from at least the 1930's, and the failure to sign a replacement CH in the 1950's and how it cost us promotion to div 1

    Plus ca change as the French say

    It's all happened before

    We didn't like the owners much when they were local either!

    moorlands
  • The template for success for the club is already there for us to draw on in the shape of the 10 consecutive years of success at every level of the footballing pyramid. From the post Petty League 2 period, right on up until the Laudrup/Monk season of 2014/15 where we finished 8th, there was a real sense that our star could rise further still if there was a determination to build upon what had already been achieved. Instead came our demise which was practically sign posted for us as it unfolded before our eyes. The club whilst in the throes of a takeover started to look unrecognisable as things began to unravel. It didn’t take long before we were relegated into the Championship, just 2 short years after our highest ever finish in the Premier League. 3 years later and we still find ourselves with yet another Championship mountain to climb this coming season. Whatever befalls the club next season there is one glimmer of hope that I can see no matter what. What may actually be the one true legacy that the previous owners have left behind that may well be more beneficial to the club in the long term than even the academy. That is a roadmap to refer to that can return us to the monumental successes that were achieved not so long ago from meagre beginnings. As the saying goes from small acorns grow mighty oaks.

  • So why do people want to own a football club.

    1 The die hard life long local fan who has made good in business and really wants his local club to do well and please the fans of which he is one. Invests his business profits in the good of his local community via his football club, never going to be a top 6 but content knowing his club are providing the best he can do to support it

    2 The very rich individual from abroad who loves football and wants to make the club successful like his business. They spend clubs finances generated from football but also their own They also spend a lot of time watching their club whenever possible, Leicester, Chelsea until visa problems, Wolves recently, Man City to name a few

    3 The corporation's from abroad, who have to get further investors from abroad, the Hedge funders, the so called financiers, who don't engage with the fans, the players and don't even visit to watch any games, most importantly not only do they know nothing about football but their only rhetoric is money speak.

    They Don't publish their plans, don't allow any disclosure, the owners who are in it to make money and never spend their own. There are a few who win things, Man U, Liverpool and lagging behind Spurs and Arsenal, Swans are a cheap version of these.

    1&2 are very rarely discredited by fans, 3 all have one thing in common the majority of fans hate them even in success, they cant relate to them. We have 33 owners with 71% of shares, apart from the main 2 who never appear, who knows the names of the others.

    These are the same 33 who will sell Roberts, Cabango and Grimes in the next month and a few more, these same 33 will attempt to get a new manager and free bees and loans, then tell us its for the good of our club and that no money is or ever has been taken out because they have done everything in the name of football and are our salvation for deciding to buy in and run us from 5000 miles away all in the name of football.

    Is this the final end of them when the last tidy assets go, I for one hope it is. I would love us to get the number 1 option as first choice or 2 as second but FFS no more of 3 2016 was the start of the Swans Brexit 5 years on and no one knows what the F is going on

    SeaJackgarythenotrashcougarJackareme
  • Great post @Phillip

    And yet you'll still see their willing apologists on here, apparently oblivious to the fact that when they took over we were a solid Premier League club that just needed a little bit of tidying up off the pitch, and now we're stagnating in the Championship, going into a 4th season minus the parachute payments.

    No doubt if we end up mid/lower half of the table next season or worse end up in League One, these people will tell us it's nothing to do with the owners, they've done a great job and at least we're financially stable. Clowns.

  • edited June 11

    I remember Malcolm Struel alright. and Doug sharpe. We were constantly in a financial mess from the 70's to the the big crash post Toshack...so don't try to smart alec me. But I was young then and not as engaged with the machinations of the club. You might want to read up on who actually started WW2 and how Russia defeated fascism. instead of the 'heroic' fallacy we're sold. the US and UK financed Hitler's rise to defeat communism, which was they saw great threat to capitalism ie their concentrated wealth. 23 million dead Russians....300 thousand dead British troops and civilians combined. huge discrepency. Yes Russia was the main player while Hitler and Mussolini wined and dined with the Mitfords in London, and Moseley was marching his Blackshirts into Wales, and getting chased out by communists, socialists, Jews, Trade unionists, miners etc. [one of Swansea's finest moments in history]

    Yet the BLM movement is now being booed when our players take the knee. that's how skewed and propagandised we are. it's a Marxist infiltrated organisation they cry. I've news for you. it's fascists who use race as a tool to divide. It's the left that traditionally battles that, because the tenets of the left are at it's core equality. In the 60's civil rights movement Martin Luther King was smeared as a communist exactly as the BLM movement is today. You've got to be switched on to resist the propaganda.

  • @Philip. Selling players, or more accurately being poached DID NOT begin with the American owners. It has happened throughout the history of the club.

    In my lifetime it was Curtis and Robbie James who got bought by bigger clubs. you're presenting a fallacy to fulfill your agenda as always.

  • @Gary, we'll see what becomes of your prediction. seems like you always think we'll be relegated or worse, since our return to the Championship -but hasn't happened yet.....though sometimes I think you wish we would fail to bolster your opinions.

    'Shithouse team'? I don't think so. I'd never say that about my club, a d certainly not after the season just gone where the club were admirable in their togetherness.

    I would say isn't it time you got over it, the gripe with the owners?

    Discard the negatives and put your positive head on. I know you can do it if you try. It makes for a much happier outlook and puts it all into perspective.

    As Bill Hicks said 'it's just a ride' ....and really football isn't that important no matter how obsessed we all are, including me.

  • Morning one and all hope all safe and well,?

    As i said on another thread NOT going into any more history but have to reply to you re the owners Pablo,

    Apart from putting a lot of monies into the former owners pockets and bringing down the wage bill making people redundant not communicating with you and me as fans ( along with a few others of course lol) and selling off players for millions replacing them in some instances only, not really working with any of the managers to REALLY progress the club on the field and not putting much if any NEW monies in what else have they done?

    as you know i respect your opinion even if to the vast majority its one eyed but on the other hand you should learn to respect other opinions as well

    now have a great day and a fab week end when the sun should be coming out

    enaitchgarythenotrashcougarJackareme
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