Looks like we'll need to prove we are double jabbed to get into games. On a lot of the front pages tomorrow, including this one:
I'm knackered, I have suffered blot clots in the past and have turned down the jabs. My work colleague was hospitalized shortly after vaccine with blood clot, so that didn't help and put me off. After reading these articles about vaccine passports this week, I know I will be treated like a second class citizen and basically written of any social life. I will just watch us on the box and go for nature walks. Hopefully I will get season tickets money back.
It’s a very dystopian world that we are entering into and makes me wonder with trepidation whatever next is in store?
of course, these are rules for England.
Drakeford may have a different take on it.
If it happens, Drakeford will bring it in sooner! But, we'll be back in lockdown by the autumn anyway, so it won't bloody matter!😪
About time, well overdue. It needs to be applied more widely to ensure the young get vacinated. It amazes me that is the middle of a pandemic, people havent come to terms with how serious this disease actually is.
There is a very good reason for the phrase '...avoid it like the PLAGUE...'
JR - You did read Jokingfan’s post about feeling completely downhearted at becoming classed as a second class citizen and through no fault of his own?
One size doesn’t fit all in all of this.
Yes I did, but if he has a medical history of blood clots than he can get the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine which has no evidence of blood clots at all. It takes a call to his local GP, and as they would know his medical history, it wouldnt be a problem.
I was planning to respond to his comment, but only just got on the website and havent had time.
But I will now, Call your GP, there is no reason not to get vaccinated @jokingfan
Don't think it's a good idea to be giving medical advice to someone you don't know, or their medical conditions or history. It's a question of choice for each individual and certainly not for others to tell people what medication they should be taking.
This idea of vaccine passports certainly is a form if discrimination and is divisive and leads to a 2 tier society. As people can get and transmit covid even after 2 jabs this policy seems to be badly thought through, its an attempt at coercion that could deny many people access to participate in society on an equal basis.
My message to @jokingfan said call his GP and pointed out Moderna and Pfizer both have shown no ill effects related to blood clots. so please dont mis represent what I said.
Its no more discrimination requiring a vaccine passport than not allowing people to drive a car on the road without passing a driving test and having a driving licence. In both cases if you dont have one, you are a greater risk to yourself and others.
If someone doesnt want to take a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic then they are dangerous to themselves and others. They allow a well of people for the virus to infect, to continue to circulate and to mutate into new strains.
Any individual can choose not to get vacinated, but lets not pretend someone isnt able to get vacinated. Getting one of the vaccines is safer than catching the virus, for yourself and others.
If you arent prepared to get a vacination, when as a result people may well die, then to pretend you are being discriminated against fairly obscene.
Covid-19 has gone in 4 variants from being about as transmissible as Ebola to be more transmissible than Flu, SARS, and HIV/AIDS. The current delta variant is about as transmissible as Mumps, Polio and Smallpox with no reduction in mortality. Only measles of the main diseases is more transmissible. That should really worry all of us, because there are at least five further variants that have already been identified, with potential for more transmissibility and evasion of the immune system.
Only the vaccines are keeping the hospitalisation and mortality rates down, but the virus will continue to infect, circulate and mutate whilst there are still large numbers unvaccinated.
You should see the sh1t show developing south of the border in the USA with people opting not to get vaccinated in their droves and literally driving a pandemic of the unvaccinated.
Of course it is every persons right to decide to not vaccinate themselves - and it siucks if there are conditions that make getting vaccinated difficult.
HOWEVER the way out of the pandemic is to follow the science.
with the delta variant exponentially more infectious and unrefutable evidence that close physical proximity drives the pandemic - what are we supposed to do?
One "fair" thing would be to play behind closed doors so that people that choose to not get vaccinated are not discriminated against, and those that have no choice are not disadvantaged..
We allow the majority who have taken the decision to protect themselves and others to attend events - and deny entry to those who reject the opportunity (up to them).
Of course it sucks for people like @jokingfan who might have medical issues affecting his choice - but for those that decide to remain unvaccinated and by extension a vector for the infection - then NO!!! Stay at home and watch on the TV live subscription and "enjoy" the consequences of your decision.
The science could NOT be clearer on the relative risks of getting the vaccine v getting the disease, and the infection potential of non vaccinated people.
i'm torn on the vaccine passport.
Because it is discriminatory. It's not just blood clots why people cant take the vaccine. There are people on immune suppressants and age - does that mean no kids can come to the games?
Yet, I am acutely aware of not wanting to spread the disease, and the potential for a new variant to be created as a result.
the fact is, Boris Johnson has royally 🤬 this country up. Not locking down quickly and hard enough. Allowing the Delta in. Opening back up too quickly, when not enough people have been vaccinated.
Having a useless track and trace system, and not paying people properly to stay home, when they spunked millions on fake PPE, and the ridiculous eat out scheme, which only spread the virus.
all of those have contributed not just to more needless deaths. but more people with serious illness - long covid, and other diseases not being treated. and a situation where we may have to go into another lockdown, or the need for a vaccine passport.
Now for travel, I can see a precedent for one. I have a vaccine passport, to prove I've had vax like yellow fever etc. So having a covid one on it makes sense to me.
Its not discriminatory. If you are on immune suppressants, then you basically dont have an immune system, so no one in their right mind would go anywhere, as catching anything is likely to kill you. So why would you go out, you wouldnt.
Children should be immunised, as they can take the Moderna vaccine as it has been cleared for under12s in the US and both mRNA vaccines basically will work, as the risk profile is lower. They just need to be cleared in the UK. That would reduce the effective pool for mutation by about 15m.
You have to be a w**ker to be making political points in the middle of a pandemic, virtually every country has got it wrong and despite recent reductions in cases, this pandemic is far from over. The one big mistake made in this country was being one week late in closing down at the start of pandemic. That drove the initial high level of deaths.
The key issue is vaccinate everyone to eliminate the pool of individuals who can sustain the virus and make sure every age group is at least 95% vaccinated. then make sure lots of work is being done on a the next vaccine we will need. We also need to make sure the rest of the world does the same. As far as I am concerned we should be sending out teams to help third world countries to vaccinate their populations, once we have our population covered.
It quite staggerring that people dont get how dangerous this virus is, every new variant is more tranmissible than the last and because we are pressuring the virus with the vaccine, there is pressure for the virus to mutate to avoid the immune system. The gamma variant is already doing so and a number of the new variants are exhibiting the same mutations.
There is the general hope that the virus with become less deadly over time. However at the moment that is foolish hope. The virus doesnt care how many people it kills unless it limits its ability to reproduce, and because it is transmisible before you know you have the disease, there is absolutely no pressure for the disease to becomes less deadly just pressure to become more transmissible and avoid the immune system.
Just hope that a random mutation doesnt make the virus more deadly at the same time if and when the there is a mutation to avoid the immune system.
Wake up and take this seriously as it is far from over and we are lucky we have high levels of vaccination currently, but everyone who isnt getting vaccinated is increasing their own risk and all of ours. And thats before the virus starts avoiding our immune ssystem so a new vaccine is required.
Posting this as a quote because I can’t delete it. Anyone have any idea on how to delete a quote that you mistakingly copied into the Leave a Comment box?
The whole idea is a joke and just a way to blackmail the young in to getting the jabs, which they should be doing if they have half a brain, it will only be damaging to those who really can’t take them. It serves no useful purpose for events like football as the jabs don’t stop you catching COVID, and you have the same chance as a none jabbed person to be a carrier and pass it on.
I don't think pointing out basic stuff like Mark has - that Johnson's leadership and decision making is a shitshow - makes him a "******".
The fact is that he and the Tories have made some absolutely appalling decisions, including lining the pockets of some mates with PPE contracts when their companies don't even make PPE. And everyone knows that Track and Trace is a joke, in most places like pubs and restaurants you can make up fake names and contacts details. Hundreds of billions of pounds, for a system like that? My 8 year old could come up with better on his laptop.
Yes, every country has struggled to a greater or lesser extent, but I thought it was well established by now that on nearly every key metric (apart from the vaccine), the UK has demonstrably performed worse than nearly everybody.
That's not "political points scoring", that's just fact, and common knowledge by now. I certainly don't think calling it out makes anyone a "******", personally.
I agree with you on the vaccine though. As many as we can, as quickly as we can, then help the rest of the world. It's the only way out of this for good.
The numbers can be confusing, especially if you are getting what purports to be information from social media.
There have been a large number of different trials, primarily in this country, to give us good information about the impact of the vaccines.
Basically you are between approx 8-20 times less likely to catch Covid-19 if you have had the full double vaccination than someone who hasnt been vacinated. Also you are about 17-42 times less likely to catch the virus and transmit it to someone else than if you havent been vaccinated.
On an individual basis, even if you catch the virus, having already been double jabbed the severity is very significantly reduced.
Basically in the UK 70.5% of the adult population have been double jabbed thats about 37.3 m out of about 52.9m. There are also about 9.2m adults who have had the first jab but havent yet(?) had the second jab. In addition I believe there are about 15m u18 in the UK, the vast majority of which havent been vacinated at all. Primarily because their disease manifestation is assymptomatic which means individually they are are very low risk of severe effects. However they are a well for the vius to mutate and they can suffer from long covid.
So in the UK there are 37.3m adults currently at very low risk of hospitalisation and death, 9.2m at medium risk and about 6m at high risk of hospitalisation and death. However those 6m are younger so their base chance of hospitalisation and death is lower due to their age. Of course they are still a source of virus mutation.
So when you look at the numbers of hospitalisations of fully vaccinated individuals you need to remember the pool of vaccinated adults is far higher the pool of un-vacinated adults.
So if the country was 100% vaccinated the only hospitalisations and deaths would be from adults who have been fully vacinated. I'm sure someone on the interweb would then be claiming the vaccine does not work and it would be safer not being vaccinated, '...as only vaccinated adults are being hospitalised and dying..' That is the sort of delusional thinking you have to deal with.
So lets look at the numbers and say if you are double jabbed you have a 1% chance of hospitalisation and if you havent been vaccinated its 12 times higher, even taking into account the benefit of being significantly younger.
Every week say 500k extra people are double vaccinated ( sadly the current rate has dropped to about 180k)
Hospitalisations Vaccinated Unvaccinated
Week 1 373 720
Week 2 378 660
Week 3 383 600
...and so on. Now someone will say '.....look there are more vacinated adults being hospitalised every week but if you arent vacinated the number are going down. Until we hopefully reach 100% and then I refer you to the comment I made above.
Also when you go to the Liberty remember its not one chance to catch the virus, its hundreds of chances,
You sit in a seat, you have eight people sitting around you, you have a further 16 people in the next row and column around them, so thats 24 people within 2metres of you. So 24 chances of catching the virus for about 100 mins, just sitting in your seat. What about getting into the stadium, through the stadium, etc etc.
You work out whether you want unvaccinated people sitting next to you and brushing against you on the way. in through and out.
Yes the w***er coment was probably a bit OTT, so apologies @Mark_Jack_London.
It does annoy me that people make party political points in the middle of a pandemic. Its like being critical of mistakes in a war scenario. The fact I didnt vote for them is irrelevant they are my government and they are dealing with an event no-one in the world was prepared for, nor knew what the right response was. All governments have made mistakes. some disease related some economy related.
If you are lucky you live on a small island with a very small population so you arent about the 35th most crowded country in the world.
There is plenty of time to deal with any real complaints when we are out of the pandemic, now is not the time. There will be an election coming up hopefully after the pandemic is over we can deal with them then.
Once again, you've said it's "party political".
Please can you explain why pointing out demonstrable incompetence in a government is "party political"?
There are plenty of people in Johnson's own party, several of them MPs, who have tried to pull him up on his failings - Jeremy Hunt for example, but he's just the first one who springs to mind, there are more. How are they being "party political"?
I actually think it's the total opposite to what you say - if we don't call this stuff out now (regardless of whether you're Left or Right or whatever) then how are we meant to learn, and make sure we don't repeat the same mistakes again, during a pandemic that is still nowhere near its end game?
Have a full enquiry at the end, sure. But surely we don't use that as an excuse to lose opportunities to question things now and learn as we go.
Of course that's very easy, it was a personal attack on an individual, old Bo-jo the clown, there was no recognition of the good things the Government has achieved to give some balance. Saying the vaccine passport is discriminatory, misleading information on vaccination, blaming the government for allowing the delta variant in, having a 'useless track and trace' system, when the only countries who had a good one, only had one because they screwed up when SARS hit them. People werent being paid 'enough' to stay at home. I could go on.
As to the internal tory critics, well are you really trying to say they arent playing party politics, where have you been your whole life. Jeremy Hunt, the man who lost the Tory leadership election is critical of Bo-jo's, who won it, handling of the pandemic.
I can't possibly think what would be in it for Jeremy Hunt after the pandemic, or perhaps I can.
Yes there are the nutters who would have never locked down, and there are those who would never have opened up, thank goodness they havent had their way.
You call mistakes incompetence, they arent, they are mistakes.
Contrary to some opinions there are no easy answers in a pandemic, lockdown you destroy the economy, dont lockdown more people die. Vaccination is the only way and the Government acted on that earlier than other countries and rolled out the vaccine quicker, and even made sure it was cheap for all other countries as well.
So the basic party political playbook is, if you lockdown, you criticise the financial impact on the people who have to stay at home and say it was too late, because magically you would have known before what the right answer is. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
If you dont lockdown you are killing people.
As I dislike all politicians equally I would be saying the same thing if this was a Labour government because once voted in it would be my government. The far Left in the Labour are being almost as critical of Kier Starmer, and he is currently playing party politics by having a purge of over 1000 far left corbynista's from the Labour party.
That behaviour, in all parties, is the equivalent of fiddling while Rome burns.
Learning as we go is great but too many people who dont understand how diseases work think they know better than the scientists who do.
For example the sad reality is it is virtually impossible to stop a new variant, such as the Delta variant, entering the country, if it is more transmissible than the current endemic variant. That's the only reason we have been able to keep out the beta variant because it wasnt more transmissible that the endemic alpha variant, at that time.
I love the clowns who throw up the "you can be double jabbed and still get infected" reason for not getting vaccinated.
First they miss (ignore) the fact that they will almost certainly not get hospitalised or die as a result of getting vaccinated.
Second they miss (or dont care) that getting double jabbed makes them less of a vector for others - so they are prepared to put the vulnerable in their own community at risk.
Third they cannot comprehend basic Maths. The vaccines were NEVER sold as being 100% effective - there is NO medication that ever was or is. Latest data is the best (Moderna) is 94% effective at preventing infection.
So for every 50 million people there will be 3 million that fall into that 6%. It is expected and inevitable.
To decline a vaccine that is 94% effective because there is a 6% chance that I might get an infection - and decline the protections that prevent severe and life threatening illness because I might get the sniffles is (fill in your own descriptive term).
For those that want to risk a trip to ICU - check out the factual video below from 3 minutes onwards - the jab wont seem so bad. There are way more graphic videos of this in real patients.
Intubation and Mechanical Ventilation - YouTube
Hope that’s not directed at my previous post as I think I’m the only one that actually wrote a line like that, if so your post is a complete misrepresentation as I did not mention not to get the jab. The point of the question being asked was what’s the need for a COVID passport and in my view the purpose of attending a football match serves no benefit for one as those with or without the jab can still be a carrier, a more practical use is to enforce the continued use of masks, you can’t tell me there is no coincidence of the rise in cases in England compared to Wales when you watch the tv and see all the English fans not wearing theirs.
Mask wearing (depending on the mask) is far less effective in stopping transmission than the vaccine. That being said, you are right that wearing masks as an additional layer of security, so why not wear it.
Apologies @Gingergit - absolutely not directed at any poster..
I was merely reflecting on the societal predisposition to reject science in favour of information from social media and other influencers.
Masks are a good additional line of protection - but fully vaccinated folks are likely (90+%) not infected at all and if they are they carry a greatly reduced viral load - so are less risk of transmitting to others.
Study: Those Vaccinated Who Get COVID Carry Less Virus (webmd.com)
The vaccine passport restricts (hugely) the number of infection possibilities in a congregate setting.
Out of curiosity I was given a card that fits in my wallet that shows what jabs and dates given by, didn’t all health authorities do the same, if so why the need for “passports” was it the same for everyone. (Got mine in Pembrokeshire by the way)
Apology accepted @JackRaven .
But my comments are nothing to do with party politics. Starmer hasnt been a whole lot better. If he sat on the fence any longer, he'd be needing treatment for ingrowing splinters.
he was warned several times about locking stuff down, and took no heed. And he's not learned lessons opening us up too soon again and again. and not shutting stuff down, including borders, time and again.
are you saying you shouldn't call out someone constantly cocking up and putting people at risk until after more people get ill, and more people die?
Like my Dad, who died on his own in hospital, because we couldnt visit him after Boris caused the massive lockdown in October/November, after failed to learn any lessons, or listen to the science last summer.
But as you brought up politics. The very nature of the passport is a political decision. There's no science involved in this idea, because a passport showing you have two vaccines isnt going to stop you catching this bloody disease, or passing it on. It just lessens the chances.
And like the rest of his policies, one minute he's for it, then he's against it, then he's for it again. Whatever way the populist wind blows is how he chooses to react.
I agree with Mark on Boris although I think the government ruined this country long before corvid.
There again it could be worse as they could be running our club.
But there again on second thoughts mmm.
No I'm saying first lets stick to the issue of Vaccine passports. IMO your comments are political, because they are one sided and said with the benefit of hindsight. I have no problem with political discussion but preferably in the right context, on a separate thread for that purpose.
In a pandemic there are very few good options and they come down to balance of probabilities. It comes accross as an ideology talking rather than the individual, because where are the comments on the things the Government have got right.
You arent the only person who has lost people and the anger I understand.
I didnt raise politics, you did with your comments to which I responded.
'But as you brought up politics. The very nature of the passport is a political decision. There's no science involved in this idea, because a passport showing you have two vaccines isnt going to stop you catching this bloody disease, or passing it on. It just lessens the chances.'
This shows you dont understand the science and this statement is just you consumed by your ideology.
No vaccine is 100% effective, you get vaccinated to reduce the chances of you catching the virus and to reduce the chances of transmission to other people. As I have said the chances of you catching the disease are reduced between 8-20 times and the likelihood of transmission by 17-42 times.That is the way out of this pandemic.
We are in the middle of the pandemic and the only people who can't take the vaccine are people with basically no immune system left. If you are in that state there is no way you should be going out to football matches or nightclubs anyway.
If you want a mistake to focus on, ahead of time, its not vaccinating the u18s now. The virus doesnt care how old the host is its just a vector to transmit the virus. So we need to the pool of unvaccinated as close to zero as possible. I do wonder if we have enough of the Pfizer vaccine to vaccinate the youngsters, that is the only potential reason not to vaccinate them imo.
Finally it boils down to me do people recognise their responsibility to society, if you can't recognise your responsibilty to society in the middle of a pandemic, then you dont really believe in society.
Your version of pandemic might be different to someone else. I personally don't know anyone who has been hospitalised with covid and I have not heard of anyone dying from it and I work with 400 plus people. You could work in care home etc and give me different version.
Responsibility to society covers a whole range side sub subjects. To you treat alcohol related incidents, obesity, smokers and drug related issues. How many cars does your household have, how much energy consumption to you use if you go down saving the planet route.
Last of all maybe someone don't believe in your version of society. A society where billionaires have space day trips, while kids are starving to death around the world.
So is that a blood clot related question?
Not sure what billionaries going on space trips, has to do with the pandemic, and it may form part of your society but it certainly doesnt sound like mine.
I want to keep my family, my friends and my local community safe.
You just sound like you dont want to get the vaccine, which is your choice, just dont expect to be able to go where you want and mix with people until you do.