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Rhys Williams

Starting a new thread to save @Webmaster the job!

@Mark_Jack_London - I saw Martin's comments about Williams returning to Liverpool a better player. Did that not strike you as a bit, well, arrogant? He will be a better player from having spent time under the tutelage of Russell Martin down at Fairwood and playing 139 minutes of second tier football against the likes of Hull and Luton than he would have been if he'd been training under Jurgen Klopp and getting games for Liverpool FC? 😂 Brian Clough, you have competition.

As to Martin's words and Williams' performances, he was good enough post-Luton to be on the bench against West Brom and Birmingham and the manager promised he'd get more game time - only to be dropped completely for the next three games.

And I heard that Liverpool were unhappy about his lack of game time from die-hard LFC supporters I know well before the Sunday Mirror reported it. If there was nothing in it, Martin wouldn't have felt it necessary to make a statement. You know that.



  • 5 CB's plus 2 FB's playing in back 3

    Can't all play

    We have too many CB's

  • With rotation most can. With 3 games in a week most can.

  • I don't think RM likes rotating his back 3 as you get more trouble - even more - playing out from the back that way, he would say

    Myself I'd be happy to see Cooper Cabango and Williams rotated in but the manager does not agree, so we have too many CB's if he carries on like that

  • And Peterborough, at home, was the perfect opportunity to give Williams another chance. If he was good enough to be on the bench against Birmingham, and Martin says he has been working hard in training, why was he dropped against Peterborough? For all those who say it would have been arrogant not to have played our best line-up against them, we were three-nil up by half time so it would have been the perfect opportunity to give Williams some more game time, keeping him and Liverpool on side. And potentially saving Manning from another yellow card.

  • Cadleigh,

    "And I heard that Liverpool were unhappy about his lack of game time from die-hard LFC supporters I know." FFS Cadleigh, talk about adding some real substance to your argument, while yet again you add arrogance in your continued attack on RM.

    Disrespecting opponents, who might be lower in the league than us at the time of the game, also conveniently forgetting some very good results Posh achieved against Bournemouth and QPR, would be pure arrogance on the head coach's shoulders, and if RM had made the decision you suggested, and we had lost the game, you would be the first one on this forum bleating about the defeat.

  • Interesting reading Martin talking about Williams he has been training well improving on what we want from him , the boys are doing well lots of clean sheets

    Yes at home we are , away we have conceded 15 goals in 6 games , so you can see defensively we struggle .

  • For the sake of balance - IF posters never repeat gossip and share their own opinions this forum would be a pretty sterile place.

    Personally I am always interested to hear snippets like @Cadleigh shared - but prepared to give the evidence the due consideration it deserves based on source.

    There is a very good point here, though, about taking opponents lightly - as Colin rightly points out IF RM had rested a few and not got the home win against Peterborough then all hell would have let loose on here - and he is correct Posh had some very decent results in the build up to our game with them.

    Reality is the only correct answer lies in the outcome and hindsight is always 20/20. Results tell us RM got it right against Posh and wrong against Bournemouth.

    However, that does not calculate in expected wins - Posh at home is a game we are expected to win - Bournemouth away is a game we would not expect to win whatever XI we fielded or how much we rotated the personnel.

  • If as some post that Liverpool arnt happy with RM not using Williams , hearsay and gossip , and they are putting pressure on RM to play him he may take the stance of I am the Swansea manager and I’ll pick who I want not who Liverpool tell me to . As some say he is stubborn then that may be true . My opinion not fact

  • & there is the rub, in your last paragraph. As far as I was concerned, in a three game week, when you have won the first two & the last one is away from home, then I think the manager has a "Free" shot at rotation.

    So, to all who post here, if RM had rotated some players,, say away to Birmingham & Bournemouth & we had lost, would you have complained!! Or if he had subbed more players at half-time against Peterborough, to give the subs a decent run out, would you have been unhappy.

    It is a matter of opinions, but for me I would have been happy to see it. At least WE would have a better picture of their ability, in this format. There is no substitute for match experience to see who can play the RM way. But then at the end of the day only RM's opinion matters, we are just "spectators".

  • Ah, so you think we should not have made a substitution at half time against Peterborough when we were 3-0 up and totally dominating the game because that would have been arrogant? Not even a CB who has played at Champions League level? (Had he been on the bench.)

    Do you think Peterborough were playing rope-a-dope hoping to snatch a 4-3 win as soon as we subbed Manning?

    As to the sources, look on Twitter and the Liverpool forums, there’s been grumbling about this for a week. Whether it’s true that extends to the club itself I can’t verify, just sharing what I heard like many on here do.

  • Cadleigh,

    if you rely on social media to galvanize your opinion then I feel sorry for you if that's the best you can do and no doubt fall into line with so many in this country who rely on social media to make their decisions in life.

    So, you turn your comment from 'why doesn't RM rotate his team to why doesn't he bring on a sub at half-time.' Whatever next, keep paddling.

  • Er, check out my post from 4.35pm. I literally said we should have rotated at half time.

  • Now would you answer my question and @StephenR’’s excellent points? BTW @StephenR my answer would be no, I would never slate the manager for experimenting. I persistently criticised Potter (feel bad about that now!) for his random and usually far too late substitutions and Cooper for sticking with the same formations long after the opposition had found us out, so I would be a hypocrite to attack a manager for showing some imagination and creativity.

  • Liverpool are considering recalling Rhys Williams from his Swansea City loan spell, with the Reds reportedly unhappy with his lack of game time in Wales.

    Williams, 20, joined Swansea City on loan from Liverpool in the summer. The Englishman looked a keen signing at first but he’s played just five minutes of first-team football since September, and now reports (Sunday Mirror, 07.11) claim that Liverpool are considering a January recall.

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    That report suggested Liverpool are unhappy with the Swans, and that they’ll likely recall Williams in January and loan him out elsewhere.

    Now though, a report from Swansea Independent has revealed that the Swans could face ‘financial penalties’ for not giving Williams a certain amount of game time in the Championship this season.

    Premier League often safeguard their youngsters heading out on loan but inserting certain clauses into their contracts, regarding game time.

    Managers will have to hand those players a certain amount of minutes of appearance in order to satisfy those clauses and Russell Martin obviously hasn’t been playing Williams as often as Liverpool would’ve liked, hence the possible financial penalties heading for his club now.

    Why hasn’t Williams played under Martin?

    It’s difficult to say, but given that Martin has a distinct style of play which not every Swansea City player has warmed to it could be a case of Martin not having the same trust in Williams as he does in his other defenders.

    He’s still a very young and inexperienced player. The likes of Kyle Naughton and Ryan Bennett have been preferred in the middle, with Ryan Manning also slotting in there to give the defence some added pace.

  • edited November 9

    Responding to @Jackareme's post on the Bournemouth thread, logic says that Latibeaudiere should get the Bennett birth against Reading if Cabango isn't available. Both are right footers and Latibeaudiere's performance on the training ground has been better than William's - must be, otherwise how else can you explain why he got on the bench the last three games? So Williams and Cooper on the bench. And following @Colin_swansea's logic, we absolutely should not show any arrogance towards Reading by substituting our best CB (Latibeaudiere) for a weaker one (Williams) until at least 70 minutes have passed and we can be confident they aren't planning a surprise fight-back.

    However, if Williams does get a surprise call-up for the Reading game, that will be evidence that he has raised his game on the training pitch, so all good. Absolutely no question that our manager can do any wrong. In fact Klopp has probably called him to apologise and ask for his advice.

  • Just a thought we sign Rhys Williams from a top premier league to improve our side.

    He finished last season playing the last 9 games to see them finish 3rd , did really well.

    Had a pre season with one of the fittest teams in the Premier League , I would have thought he would be on a high .

    Wanted to sign for the Swans , 3 months later 3 starts .

    I wonder how Marc Guehi would have faired under Martin ?

  • I have no doubt he would have fitted in straight away in RM's back three unlike under Cooper when he first arrived who tried him in a back four, dropped him only to bring him back when Stevie boy reverted to a back three.

  • Cadleigh - It’s almost like saying that from the fans eye point of view, and I especially mean the Russell Martin Appreciation Society that he can do no wrong. I may be blinded by my being in this camp or at least placed in this camp but I can’t help but feel that those who are scornful of RM’s approach look upon his results and actions thus far with a “he can’t do no right” attitude. There are times when the manager (and team for that matter) get it hopelessly wrong. However if you refer to Pep/Man City’s defeats against Crystal Palace and West Ham, they are in fact worse defeats than ours against Bournemouth. Man City are in the top four of the Premier League with some of the worlds best ever players and lose to lesser teams in the Prem whereas we lost to the toughest slickest team in the Championship riding high at the top of that league and likely to go up automatically in 1st place. A bit of perspective has to be introduced when digesting what was a heavy defeat for the Swans who are now, remarkably, 12th in the league and only 3 points away from vying for a playoff place. Despite all the negativity that is thrown RM’s way what can’t be disputed is that we are slowly but surely rising up the table with a distinct possibility that we’ll be in a playoff position come the end of the season.

  • Amazing topic,

    A player can't get into our team, and for some reason everyone is filling their pants in case Liverpool are upset.This is the Liverpool which pocketed 20 mil after the Club gave Brewster his first serious exposure.I would suggest that LCFC are ahead overall.

    Not many suggestions that I have seen here, which say that any of the Coach's team selections deserve to be dropped to allow the lad to play.As has always been the case in football ,injury,loss of form or suspension will give the lad his chance,which I have no doubt he will eagerly give 100% to make a succes

    Reacting/falling for media speculation, and unbelievably twitter etc, seems to be the way of life these days.

    Perhaps we have too much time on our hands,

  • edited November 10

    Interesting questions, @SeaJack.

    I've said previously that there are three types of poster on here. I'd characterise them as those who think Martin can do no wrong, those who are prepared to accept that he makes the odd mistake on their own account, but push back whenever anyone else appears to criticise him, and those who think he is largely a good thing but has obvious things he needs to work on. This latter point of view was perfectly summarised by @northernswan2 on the Bournemouth thread and I subscribe to it 100%.

    @JackRaven has accused me of being a fourth category all of my own - having a secret agenda of wanting to undermine Martin by pretending to praise him but always sticking the knife in. This is b@llocks. I am no more critical of Martin than I was of Cooper, Potter or any of our previous managers - it just looks like it because every time I or anyone else raises a mild question about him, there's a sh!tstorm on here from the first two groups of posters.

    This thread is a perfect illustration of that. The discussion started with @Rhydian posting that he was worried about Rhys Williams not getting game time and maybe being recalled. @Malc agreed. No criticism of Martin. But you and @JackRaven leapt to his defence nonetheless, insisting that he must have his reasons. And so began an argument about whether Martin is rotating his squad members enough, whether it is sensible to play every game like it's a cup final, whether Williams has been given a fair chance to show what he can do.

    Under any other manager I can think of, we'd have had a reasoned discussion about the merits of Rhys Williams, use of the squad, whether we need a formation change etc. But it's virtually impossible because of the partisan division of views on here. It's like the old fault-line over the owners has changed into one over the manager. Never happened before - even Laudrup at his zenith had critics who were allowed to express their opinions without being jumped on. Very strange.

  • No one is 'filling their pants in case Liverpool are upset'. Some of us are concerned that we have taken a player who, as @Malc said, played at the highest level in the world last season (Champions League), and hardly given him a chance. As a result we could face an unnecessary financial penalty for failing to honour a contractual commitment and might find it harder to attract players of Williams' talent from top clubs in future.

    The elephant in the room in this discussion, of course, is the suspicion that Martin does not in fact select on absolute merit but has favourites who he sticks with even when they have bad games, and takes against other players who then can't get back into the squad no matter how good they are or how hard they try.

  • Wow!!! that's quite load of speculation.

    Do you subscribe to it?

  • @Cadleigh that's some elephant to claim RM is selecting the team based upon favourites !!

    There may well be more elephants in the room like it's just possible that based upon the criteria RM uses for team selection such as fitness, suitability for his formation and tactics that Rhys Williams is further down the pecking than say Naughton, Bennett, Manning, Cabango & Latibeaudiere.

    Any more elephants and we shall have a herd on our hands and probably need a bigger room 😉

  • Didn’t we have similar posts last season with Regards Cooper with his favourites in Ayew and Grimes and not rotating the squad effectively and the lack of subs being used . Seems it must be a Swans thing 😀

  • Spot on,it's the same as last season,just substitute Martin for Cooper.

    Every fan thinks they know better than the manager,and bore the pants off their mates.Most don't take themselves so seriously that they go on a crusade about it.😉

  • It's impossible to know, of course, because Martin always insists that players are selected or dropped on the basis of attitude and/or effort on the training pitch, and since none of has a magical portal to Fairwood, we can't say if that is actually true or just a convenient thing to say because it can't be challenged.

    But take Benda. Dropped after the defeat to Preston and not given a second chance. Responsible for giving away the free kick that led to their third goal but as Mitchelmore said, no keeper could have stopped the other two goals. No one on the matchday thread on this forum blamed him for the result. @Jackareme said he was one of a number of players to have an offday. I questioned aspects of his performance. At least as many posters leaped to his defence. Most blamed the outfield players for that defeat. Martin dropped him, claiming that Hamer was working harder on the training ground. Looks like he paid the price for that defeat to me.

    Perfectly natural for a manager to have favourites, and mostly Martin's favourites are delivering the goods, so that's a positive. Is it healthy? Not so sure.

    Does anyone know why Obafemi has been dropped? Judging by the news reports it seems he was late for training. I can't see anything else but maybe someone can enlighten us?

  • Yeah, Laudrup, Monk and Clement all did the same. That ended well.

  • Personally I've been surprised that Rhys hasn't featured more than he has.

    He had an absolutely outstanding debut in the home game against Hull but then we had the Luton match where he was substituted and the associated wellbeing aspects of the racist abuse. I also think he's made a substitute appearance.

    So, although I think he's a very good player and should have had more appearances, I have very little evidence to back up that view. That's really only based on the Hull City match.

    The thing is, we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, fitness stats and performance on the training pitch, and I trust Martin enough not to make a wrong decision on this. If Rhys had had 5 excellent matches and wasn't getting some match time (or "minutes" as seems to common parlance these days) , then I think we'd have more to justify making a thing of it.

    I get what @Cadleigh says about squad rotation but I also understand the point about not changing a winning combination. There are merits of both sides of the argument - no right or wrong answer - but I'm happy to just rely on Martin's judgement on this one.

  • Ancient history,different people,different circumstances.Strange that you see it as relevant.

  • Not really. You see what Monk and Clement had in common is that they were very inexperienced managers. It is common with very inexperienced managers - particularly young men - to promote your mates, surround yourself with people who only tell you what you want to hear, indulge in favouritism, try to impress people by being macho because that's what you think good management looks like, and try to run before you can walk. It rarely ends well.

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

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