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how many defeats does it take

Although the QPR game may not be played ,if it was there was another defeat looming looking at their current form and ours. With Millwall away on Boxing day to follow that could very easily be 5 successive defeats.

Do other posters think this might make Martins' position with us very shaky going into the New year ?

Clearly, as others have more or less said ,he is trying to play a system with players who simply do not have the ability to perform well enough playing that way.

bigoak
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Comments

  • The postponement of this fixture might be helpful. We need to regroup and work on the training field, and also come back fresh and rested for the Christmas fixtures.

    It is also another game that will take place after the transfer window opens - where we should be stronger.

    SeaJackMalaga
  • Although criticism of Martin is building on other sites, I think Winter has too much riding on this appointment to press the panic button for some time - having given Martin carte blanche to run the show the way he wants, including areas that Allen is supposed to be in charge of as Sporting Director, I think Winter would be at risk of going too if Martin does. All depends on how concerned Silverstein is by what he has seen. This could also affect the amount of money available for transfers this January, if the board are worrying about having to pay yet more compensation for early termination of contracts.

  • they will not pull the plug on Martin. not unless he looks like he has us in peril at the bottom and we dont look like winning a game.

    And I dont think that's the case. Should have beaten Boro. Could have won the other two games if we'd taken our chances before the opposition scored.

    And it isnt just Winter who has skin in the game. Allen does too. And the owners.

    CadleighSeaJackmoorlands
  • I agree Mark, in the first instance i could not see Mr Martin and his staff coming with out cast iron guaranteed terms with the record our owners had before his arrival, and think if we finish mid table or just below the play offs will be a fair season with all the changes, having said that things need looking at as we are shipping goals too easily, am sorry to say the lad Williams will go back to liverpool and we will lose a couple more hopefully for good prices, and he will hopefully bring in people in who will improve areas that all can see need improving, , the game last saturday showed the difference in finishing, our chances created and scored from and theirs , they were clinical where we were not

    SeaJackmoorlands
  • It was always marked as a rebuilding season.

    Williams goes back - he's not our player, it hasnt worked out. Move on. Not every move works out.

    But for me, we need to strengthen the top of the pitch. Some have mentioned Patterson looked tired on the weekend. Both he and Ntcham had very average games IMO.

    They need to be rotated. They need competition for their places, too. And the fact remains, we had the better chances in the first half against Forest, and in the Boro game.

    We didnt take them, and paid dearly for it.


    Martin has a few things he needs to urgently look at before the next game - which I think will be Millwall, unless the EFL force QPR to play it.

    1. Making sure we are switched on at the start of both halves of games. We've conceded within the first 5 minutes of either half 9 times. (Preston, Blackburn, Luton, Birmingham, West Brom, Reading (twice, at the start of each half), Bournemouth, Forest (2 goals at the start of the 2nd half which killed the game)).
    2. Another 2 times, within 8 mins of a restart. (Stoke and Preston)
    3. Three times we have conceded again within 7 mins of the opposition scoring (Forest and Stoke - could add Preston, but half time sandwiched the goals).
    4. And we have conceded within 6 minutes of scoring 5 times (Forest and Birmingham 6 and 5 mins later; Preston 2 mins. Reading 1 minute, twice).

    So it seems to me there are levels of concentration that need to be dramatically improved, because of those games above, we lost 8 of them and drew 1.

    Colin_swanseaSeaJackKeith
  • Forget looking at the top of the pitch if Hamer is there in goal. Keith Haynes on another site reckons a done deal has been done for a 20 year old from M K Dons. Who is supposed to be good with his feet, but questionable with other parts of being a keeper. That is if you read the MKDons forum. So because of the missed chances by the Swans You must have airbrushed the two chances that Forrest had, especially the one that Zinckernagel should have scored

    Of course the likes of Winter or his side kick Allan will not get rid of Martin. As they have bought in to Martin’s way of playing the game, hook line and sinker. The only people that will get rid of the lot of them are the Yanks and that can easily happen

    What’s this business about more concentration is needed, when the biggest problem is staring you right in the eyes. Of playing a system that the players are not comfortable with and of course picking players completely out of position.But there you always know better

    Perhaps you haven’t read what northernswan posted, That the present bunch of Swans players are not good enough. Too many supporters are wearing rose tinted glass including yourself and the one that you reckon is the only sensible person in my family

    Have a good one

    Cadleigh
  • How things have changed for the likes of Mark Jack London and others. Telling us all that Martin’s way of playing football was the way to go. When you are now starting to read posters on other sites asking for Martin’s head. Did we not have booing at the end of Saturdays game to support this dissatisfaction about the way the team is playing and against Martin himself

    Just read what this NarkJack London has said out Rhys Williams. “He goes back - he’s not our player -it hasn’t worked out” How pathetic a statement is that. When the boy has played at the highest level with Liverpool. Plays as good as you would want a player when playing for Wales, but no good for Swansea. So the question must be asked in why was he brought to Swansea in the first place. One thing for sure. Swansea vacancy forget any more loan players from Liverpool after the way Williams has been treated

    BTW:- I understand that you have now received my email

    Cadleigh
  • @HaydnEames

    Rhys Williams from Liverpool doesn't play for Wales ,

    Neco Williams plays for Liverpool and Wales he is a full back .

  • I realised that after I posted that post

    Nevertheless good enough to get into the England under 21 team and also played in a Champions League team for Liverpool

  • I don’t think we can dismiss the Rhys Williams loan debacle so lightly. He signed at the very end of the transfer window so Martin absolutely knew what he was getting - which was not a wide CB in a three-man defence. So either Martin knew that and thought he could coach him into a new way of playing or he let Cooper’s loan move go ahead for the hell of it. Either way there is a good chance that our reputation as a good club for EPL teams to send their brightest prospects to has taken a big knock.

  • and it is a debacle because?

    Lets not forget that Guehi arrived in January, and barely played until the season restarted in July. He took a long time to adjust and force his way into the team.

    Williams has had a difficult time, for a number of reasons. There will have been plenty of dialogue between the clubs, and I am sure they would have wanted him to play more too. But he's not the first player to suffer this fate. and he wont be the last. Either for a Liverpool loanee. A Swansea loanee - like with Roberts suffered at Boro. It happens, and i very much doubt Liverpool wont feel any less about us because of it.

    Whether he was the choice of the previous manager, Andy Scott's suggestion, or indeed Martin's, it really doesnt matter. He is a player of potential. That's why he's on loan. so far, it hasnt worked out. not all loans do.

    you seem to be a supporter with very little patience, either with the manager or players.

    LlanjackSeaJack
  • It's a debacle because he doesn't suit the system and we have two young players of our own who are just like him, and no worse on current evidence. That's very poor use of the loan system for a club that supposedly prides itself on academy throughput (a delusion invented after relegation when a single successful class took the step together).

    Cadleigh
  • Exactly. We were very successful in the loan market under Cooper because of his prior history and reputation as an excellent coach. Having Scott on the team and an admired academy will have helped too. We were also perceived as playing decent football and achieving success on the field, which is no bad thing for a loan player to experience.

    All of those positive draws for top teams are contingent, and fragile, and in fact I would say they have all gone into reverse at this point in the season.

    Laird has done well for game time so far, but he will be perceived as Martin’s loan player, not the club’s.

    The way Rhys Williams has been used, sporadically, out of position and with inadequate cover, is a mess and it has the potential to do us serious damage in the loan market.


  • 2019/20 loans - ,short memories for you Cadleigh, Kalulu, Surridge(or Sewerage as jasper called him), Gallagher was played out of position during his early few months while Guehi struggled to get a game and only played when Cooper reverted to a back 3. When I see how Gallagher has turned out in further loan moves it just makes me wonder what we missed.

    2020/21 loans - Gyokeres, Palmer, Hourihane, Morris, Arreola

    Cooper was fortunate to have two seasons with parachute payments which helped to finance the signing of loans from PL clubs. None of us know at what cost to the club the loan signings were but with parachute payments ended, there is no doubt that for the current season if he had stayed, he would be in a different market for players than in his previous two seasons.

    Was Woodman that good a keeper to sign him for consecutive seasons.

    As for our successful academy, as soon as finance decreased, staffing levels dropped and Nigel Rees was left to his own decision making, one wonders who can actually be made responsible for some quite poor recommendations, Scott or Rees’s academy scouts. Especially when you considers the lack of impact Rio Campbell has made and the likes of Akande, Harry Jones who are on pro contracts already as is Josh Thomas, although I believe injury has prevented him playing this season. The bright prospects we have seen over the last two seasons were already in the academy.

    Have Brighton, Basel, Bristol City, Bournemouth complained about their players not getting loan time as you feel Liverpool have, and as much as many on this forum criticised Gyokeres, one wonders if he had played consistently as he did at Coventry last season before signing full time, how he would have turned out.

    What can be said about the loan signings is that the ones Cooper knew from his period with England were always utilised while the ones in so many cases recommendations by Scott were bench warmers and quite possibly that’s where the decision was made to go down a different recruitment route.

    JackaremePAJmoorlands
  • There seems to be a narrative concocted with Russell Martin as being some Ming the Merciless character, who has seized control of the club and will crush it in his bare hands unless Julian Winter and Mark Allen can escape being in thrall of this tyrannical dictator.

    He may have stipulated certain demands prior to signing on the dotted line but that isn’t being tyrannical, that’s simply making sure that the club can give him what he needs to succeed as the club’s manager. And I’m sure that this was within reason so that the club didn’t overstretch itself to the point of it being detrimental to the club.

    Need I remind anyone that there were similar concerns over Steve Cooper and his decision to take the style of play away from what Graham Potter had implemented the season before he took control. There is a belief that he got the job under false pretences although this admittedly is hearsay. He effectively put the GP/Swansea City AFC project on ice in favour of introducing what was at times a hit and hope tactic with regards to passing the ball into touch or directly to an opposition player. Thankfully, the score-lines and eventual outcomes come the end of the two seasons that he was with us, spared his blushes somewhat as the football was dire to watch at times.

    Russell Martin was good enough and brave enough to take on what was effectively a poison chalice after what took place with the Eustace debacle. With some notable opposing voices regarding Steve Cooper at least, both Graham Potter and the aforementioned were still cut a lot of slack despite their respective wobbles/disasters on the pitch. Why Russell Martin isn’t being afforded that by some and being attacked on the forum is a mystery to me. He needs a fair crack of the whip I feel to fully implement what Potter reintroduced to the club upon his appointment.

    What was put on ice by Cooper is only just beginning to thaw so patience is the key as with all our managers since the drop. We have to remember that each and every manager that we have appointed throughout the rise to the Premier League, during our stay in the Premier League, and whilst in the Championship at present has been a punt. Some have been successful, some of them phenomenally so, whilst others have been a total disaster. I don’t see RM as being any different to what has gone before. Unless you bring in the likes of Klopp or Guardiola then the choice of managers that we are able to choose from will always come with an inherent risk.

    JackaremePAJBobmoorlandsdeekay
  • For the record ( see Haydn Eames above who has misunderstood a post of mine) I didn't say the current squad is not good enough

    I said Forest have a better squad than we do

    Couple that with -currently- better coaching, and you get last weekend's result

    Over time RM may sharpen up his coaching and the players may start performing better under this system

    May is the operative word

    Jury's out ATM

    A LOT of selection mistakes are happening and there appears to be a touch of panic going on

    Players are taking turns in the naughty corner and being frozen out

    Simultaneously nice things are being said to the press about them

    It's enough to confuse or lose some of the dressing room

    At the least it's not making the best of the squad we do have

    Half a season in, the excuses of no pre season and bedding in a new system are behind us

    Cadleigh
  • Akande has disappointed but Harry Jones was a good signing imo, Colin. Done well since he's come in, playing a lot of football up an age group. Matty Jones was working with him with Wales at the time Arsenal decided they weren't going to take him on pro, and was quick to give the thumbs up over other options. Better than what we had for sure. Had scholarship offers from other big London clubs.

    Jackareme

  • Good to hear that Jasper, hope he continues to progress. Think Mattie Jones was a bigger loss to the academy than what as first thought.

  • I will stick what I said even if I slightly misunderstood you.

    I watched a few Forrest games when Chris Houghton was in charge and there’s players playing for Forrest now that were unrecognisable to when the previous manager was in charge

    The criticism of some players then on social media was really awful, especially to Spence who they criticised unmercifully, with nearly as much for Worrall, Zinckernagel, Colback and Dias

    Four of those players mentioned played against Swansea last Saturday with Dias coming on as sub. Spence together with Johnson ripped Swansea apart with their brilliant performance

    Now read the comments on social media about these same player and especially the praise for Cooper in what he has done at Forrest

    Play-offs is now a certain according to most on there and some are evening talking of automatic promotion

  • edited December 2021

    Well that is an exaggerated depiction of what anyone has said, but let's look at the facts.

    In September 2020 Julian Winter replaced Trevor Birch as chief executive - a highly admired CEO, who has a record of speaking truth to power and resigning on principle, being replaced by someone @Mark_Jack_London has been very disparaging about. And he has lots of contacts in the club so I am sure he knows what he is talking about. Obviously not Martin's doing as it was nearly a year before he joined, but a weakening in the controls on the manager.

    In July 2021, following Steve Cooper's departure, Andy Scott is promoted to a bigger role at the club, overseeing a range of issues no longer limited to recruitment.

    Same month, Russell Martin asks Alan Tate's help with his application for the Swansea role, which Tatey graciously provides.

    August 2021, Scott is demoted and Mark Allen given a bigger job as part of a restructuring following Russell Martin's appointment.

    Scott (49) is a football man through and through - he started playing as a teenager and when he retired on health grounds in 2005 he moved straight into coaching.

    Allen (58) has an impressive recent record in football, managing the Man City academy and being Rangers' Director of Football. Surprisingly, perhaps, he only got his first job in football at the age of 45 and has never played professionally. He spent most of his career in managerial roles in TV and film production.

    In September, Alan Tate is offered a job that is an obvious demotion, and shortly afterwards he leaves.

    In December, Scott follows him out the door.

    These are indisputable facts. How we interpret them is of course a matter for each of us as individuals. You may decide that Scott's promotion, demotion and exit were unrelated to Martin's appointment. Same with Tate. Or that Allen (who has never managed a football team) would be no less able to take Martin to one side and speak to him with authority about what's going wrong as Scott (who has managed three teams including Brentford).

    I don't see Martin as a Ming the Merciless, I see him as a headstrong young manager who is being allowed to pursue his one big idea without being offered the challenge he needs. It's known as Group Think. I flagged it as a potential problem before Tatey or Scott left. Now I am worried as hell.

    SeaJackbigoak
  • As i say if your coaching is spot on, you don't need the best squad only one that is good enough

    The fans like the team to play distinctive football - that's fine with me too - but I also like us to be hard to beat

    That's Citeh for you and it's an approach to try and emulate with good habits on field, as Brian Clough remarked

    ATM the good habits are going AWOL, certainly in defence

    So we are onto Clough's other mantra which was that when the results are not forthcoming you either change the manager or the whole squad

    We are trying the second, which is disruptive and we are hoping it works

    Of our current starting team only about 4 played regularly last season - Naughton Bennett Grimes and Bidwell and I would expect next January's window to reduce that

    Hope we don't cash in on Piroe to fund other buys

    Cadleigh
  • Good analysis @Cadleigh and hard to disagree with.

    The only comment I would make is about the link between Vision, single mindedness and success,

    In whatever line of business success is quite often linked to a clear vision and a dedication to making the vision a reality. Too much deviation from the vision can sometimes dilute the sense of purpose and make the end product a watered down version which is ultimately not as successful.

    I think the key is to be smart enough to realise that there are building blocks to success and sometimes there needs to be some minor adjustments to make the necessary step forward.

    For example - as you know I am a strong disciple of the RM way of playing and am generally enjoying the transformation he has brought to the club. The bit I am particularly enjoying is the way that we attack games through possession and committing players forward - passing the ball instead of humping it aimlessly.

    HOWEVER.. given the evidence of recent weeks (in particular) it is clear that we have an issue defending in wide areas on our left side. It was not so long ago we were keeping clean sheets quite regularly - and this was based on Manning at left centre back and Bidwell at left wing back.

    I cannot understand why RM did not go for this set up against Forest - particularly given the pace and potency of Spence and Johnson down that side.

    I love the positive mantra for RM - but I do feel there is room for a little bit of pragmatism on occasions - and this is one example.

    Cadleigh
  • edited December 2021

    JK Galbraith said that if Kennedy hadn't been assassinated he'd probably have started WW3 because he surrounded himself with men from the same background and they were all unable to see things that would have been obvious if there'd been a bit of diversity in the room. I honestly think that would make a big difference to Martin and his project.

    Having someone to offer an alternative view, I mean. Not being assassinated.

    Jackareme
  • @HaydnEames

    Forest are a good side , there are many good teams in the Championship,

    I thought Stoke were a really good side lots of good players , well coached , money that could be available.

    Fulham and Bournemouth look good West Brom should be in the Playoffs ,

    Blackburn and Coventry doing very well , Q P R should go close if they don't sell their best players.

    The Championship is so competitive with most teams capable of beating anyone on their day .

    Sheffield Utd could be an outside bet ,

  • Jackareme,

    From the last three matches all three right side wing backs, Yiadom(Reading), Jones(Boro) and Spence(Forest) have caused us problems in games where Bidwell hasn’t played and prior to the Barnsley game both Manning and Bidwell have both been included in the starting line-up.

    New deals on the table for Swans quartet | Planet Swans

    If there is substance in the article then either Bidwell will accept the offer or RM has decided he wants a more attacking exponent for this position, hence his preference for Manning in last three games albeit to the detriment of defensive stability.

    From those three matches what it does say however is that Manning can only be seen as a left sided c/back and RM should in no way employ him in the wide left back position as he can’t be depended on to do that defensive side of that role. 

    SeaJack
  • To answer the original question, which nobody has done yet , I'd say that it would take 8 straight defeats for RM to be sacked. But we are too good for that.

  • All of our next five games are against teams above us in the table. On current form I'd predict three defeats and two draws. That's not counting the rearranged QPR fixture, which I'd have put down as a likely defeat. Thankfully there are three teams in even worse form than us and we have to play them some time.

  • If he did go, who do you suppose would take over as caretaker manager? There’s literally no one left now other than O’Leary.

  • He is safe unless we we get sucked into the relegation fight , a couple of wins the picture changes ,

    I'm not concerned at the moment , there is more than enough talent in the team to be mid table or higher ,

    This season was always going to be one of transition similar to Graham Potter's season .

    SeaJack
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