Football betting site Betway

Can we all agree that...

2

Comments

  • the Trust would not be taking the club to court. They would be taking the other shareholders to court to force them to buy their shares.

    it will end any involvement the Trust has with the club though, other than statutory rights for any remaining shareholding they may or may not have. They need 5% to remain on the Board. all goodwill between parties will also have ended, so the majority shareholders will do whatever they want, save decisions that further cause unfair prejudice to the minority.

    Kaplan's Group, from what reports have stated to date, would be able to claim against the sellers, as they were indemnified that there was not a shareholders agreement. 
    Ponty : i did not intend to say the Trust would have nothing to lose, i said there are risks and no one knows the outcome. but in reality the Trust ,based on last few years have a good case.and if they do nothing will lose!

    M .J, L  The Trust will take the fellow Shareholders to court ,  the Company has done nothing wrong! . As to losing good will, do you think there is any goodwill now?  i dont think there is. all that is going on now is a PR exercise. and that will continue. the owners would drop the Trust in a heartbeat if there was anything to gain. There is no good will just convenes and PR.  
  • Big Oak   -    Court cases have a good record in having surprising results as Ben Stokes can testify. I would not take anything for granted. 
  • Perhaps the Judge in that case might be a cricket fan and the judge in the trusts case if there is one might be a welsh football fan
  • Big Oak   -    Court cases have a good record in having surprising results as Ben Stokes can testify. I would not take anything for granted. 
    Ponty:  dont be fooled by the way the case was covered in the press: The jury heard all the "facts" evidence and took less than 3 hours to find him not guilty.  In the case of the Trust  ditto, with a Experienced High Court Judge  in stead of a jury; but i do agree nothing is guaranteed 
  • Why would you expect Ponty to pay any regard to the facts and the evidence placed before him ? He doesn't even believe in listening to witnesses to an event, he'd rather place his faith in social media and the press.
  • I did not attend the court proceedings Deekay. I have to work unfortunately and don't live in Bristol.  From the evidence I read in the press I was surprised at the result. That's all.  I listen to all points of view and respect them.  You do not it appears. 
  • Precisely, you read the press version, the jury heard the facts and the evidence.. Nothing else to add really !
  • bigoak said:
    Big Oak   -    Court cases have a good record in having surprising results as Ben Stokes can testify. I would not take anything for granted. 
    Ponty:  dont be fooled by the way the case was covered in the press: The jury heard all the "facts" evidence and took less than 3 hours to find him not guilty.  In the case of the Trust  ditto, with a Experienced High Court Judge  in stead of a jury; but i do agree nothing is guaranteed 
     the prosecutor is under huge pressure and criticism for cocking up the Ben Stokes case brought in front of the judge.

    and yes, the Trust could have a crap barrister, so nothing is guaranteed. 

    but a criminal case for affray is way different to the Trust's case. 
    bigoak
  • edited August 2018
    StephenR said:

    a) The previous Directors made a "pigs ear" of managing our cashflow & in their transfer dealings over the last 3 years in their chase for maintaining Premier League status, leaving us in such dire straits that things like the recent transfer debacle had to happen & are not over yet

    b) The previous Directors sold the club in a "less than professional"(probably illegal) way cutting out the Trust, thus causing huge anger amongst loyal supporters.

    c) The new owners WILL NOT invest any new money into the club.

    d) None of the previous Directors should have anything further to do with the club, because they will tarnish it further, (possibly even criminal charges against them)

    e)The Trust have been too trusting (see what I did there) & need to raise their diligence & be seen to do it because..

    f) We all need to join the Trust (the only game in town)  & raise as much money as possible, as quickly as possible. For the inevitable sale!


    The only point I might take issue with is a). Every club in relegation trouble employs the same tactics to save premier league status. Our board weren't some kind of anomaly in that case. We did what they all did. It's true of the premier league that if a team goes on a 10 game run with only one win....a manager will probably get sacked or at least undergo some kind of trial by media, as with Wenger [obviously the problem for Arsenal was not relegation but trophies]. Over three seasons we did make some questionable transfers to save our status, but again our team is not alone in this tactic. Every team does likewise. Our troubles really came to a head last season when there weren't any really good buys out there for a club of our financial clout. We certainly overspent a bit but then we very nearly pulled off surviving again but for inexplicably losing two straight forward home games after beating Arsenal and Liverpool.
    I've always felt it was  NOT a good idea to work like this but it is the favoured way of doing things...add into the mix us being unfavoured as a destination for players and a natural reticence to not want to be part of a relegation battle also means our choices of players would be narrowed further.
    I don't think blame can really be apportioned in that case because of the nuances and sheer luck involved. We just ran out of that luck  with the the method involved to save our status. There are a lot of teams who spent a hell of a lot more cash than we did in this pursuit too. Got to remember the most we ever spent on a player was £16 million....a lot less than others who suffered the same fate as us last season.
    I'm a lot happier now that GP has hit the reboot button and now it's less about money and the emphasis shifted to young professionals with a hunger to play at the top level. seems a much better way to achieve on field cohesion and implement a playing style that can be the blueprint for many seasons to come. Feels like the Martinez years a bit.
  • Jenkins ...has he switched his phone off. He should be giving some club feedback on this ...the umpteenth consecutive dodgy transfer window where fans and manager are completely s$$t upon
  • The recent transfer window was a success not a failure.  All the fit big earners were shifted on.  Had they stayed the club would be facing extinction.   Decent valuations were achieved for most players and although there may be a deficit it is not calamitous.   Older players like Bony and Routledge are out of contract at the end of this season and off the books. Wayne may move on this season.  It is the end of an era. 

    Wages have been slashed and liabilities run down.  Big hits will be taken for Clucas and Borja offset by gains with Mawson and Fabianski.  The moved on players are not in the Potter mould and he will be given a clean sheet to work with all be it with a tight budget.    3 or 4 good pros are needed to beef up the squad and this can be done before the end of the month.  Players like Besic with Everton playing most of his wages. 
  • I'd say it was almost a success - if we had secured Woods and another 2 or 3 loan players. 
    Pablo
  • The recent transfer window was a success not a failure.  All the fit big earners were shifted on.  Had they stayed the club would be facing extinction.   Decent valuations were achieved for most players and although there may be a deficit it is not calamitous.   Older players like Bony and Routledge are out of contract at the end of this season and off the books. Wayne may move on this season.  It is the end of an era. 

    Wages have been slashed and liabilities run down.  Big hits will be taken for Clucas and Borja offset by gains with Mawson and Fabianski.  The moved on players are not in the Potter mould and he will be given a clean sheet to work with all be it with a tight budget.    3 or 4 good pros are needed to beef up the squad and this can be done before the end of the month.  Players like Besic with Everton playing most of his wages. 

    No transfer window can be deemed a success when you lose 15 players, bring in only 5 and ask your manager to work with a threadbare squad.

    Ponty, I'm sorry, but your posts are bordering on the delusional, and I maintain my stance on this - you are a club plant, and I claim my five pounds. 

    No rational person could claim the things you claim with a straight face, I'm sorry. 
    enaitchMark_Jack_Londonbigoak
  • Pablo

    In taking issue with point a) of StephenR's post, you raise an interesting point. I agree we fell into the trap of doing what all other clubs do. Spend big, on not necessarily good players, in the hope that they can get us over the survival line. However up to 3/4 years ago we prided ourselves on doing things differently, so why did we change ?
    Unfortunately, we were led by someone who had lost sight of that ethos and who thought he could succeed where all others had failed. This was entirely predictable, and even with my limited footballing knowledge, I posted here many times that I wouldn't give our DoF another penny as he would waste it all and is exactly what he did.
    It is only now that we have reverted to our original mentality that there is a glimmer of hope. However, I have absolutely no faith in HJ's ability to lead us, as he has burnt his bridges with far too many.
    garythenotrashcougar
  • edited August 2018
    Lots of talk of luck. 

    We were unlucky. We didn't get the rub of the green. We lost key players at the wrong moments. We only lost these key games very narrowly. 

    It's the language of the meek, I'm sorry. The language of excuses. The language of people not prepared to admit mistakes. The language of people absolutely determined not to learn from those mistakes.

    It is also the language of people quite happy to see a man continue to receive £600,000 a year as a reward for appalling mismanagement.

    We were relegated because we did not heed warnings in 2014, 2016 and 2017 where we got away with it. Funny how luck didn't come into it when we managed to survive.

    Until 'accountability' becomes a buzzword instead of 'luck' our club will never rehabilitate itself, no matter how hard the frankly brilliant Potter works on the training ground.  
    enaitchPanda31
  • Well put Gary. Let's re-set the clock going forward.

    Nordfeldt's injury wasn't bad luck, it was just 'accountability'. I am sure that for the rest of this season we'll have loads of terrible 'accountable' refereeing decisions going against us but at least we will have the comfort of knowing that luck didn't play a part.
    Llanjack
  • Gary the wage bill has been reduced by £40m and around £50m has come in from sales in a few weeks. Most of these economies have come from players under contract and they were under no obligation to uproot and leave. Apart from Clucas good fees were achieved. The Ayews will have to go next Summer. 

    Only Bony of the big earners has remained and he is injured and out of contract next Summer thank God.    Had they not gone the club would have been bankrupted unless bailed out by the US investors. 

     Remember turnover will only be around £30m once the parachutes have finished in 2021.  Bony is believed to be currently  taking around £5m on his own. 

    Relegation means all players must be on less than £10k per week. The club is short of 3 or 4 players easily found in the loan market.  Despite the brutal cuts the team should still be competetive.  Woods cannot be afforded regretibly. Dhanda Celina McKay and Asoro  fit the bill perfectly. Parachute payment can be used for new players not running down the contracts of 29 year olds on £40k per week. That's why I see the window as a sucess.  Not delusional at all. 
  • good fees? they have all been undisclosed, so nobody knows the fees bar the speculation in the press.

    And if those press reports are true:
    Clucas - big loss
    Mesa - big loss
    Mawson - undervalued
    Fede - undervalued
    Fabianski - undervalued

    Bartley is the only success I'd say, in terms of what we bought him for. what we sold him for, and his market value.

    The other leavers were the Ayews and Baston. hopefully the two former players loan deals cover 100% of their wages and the loan fees offset some of the other losses. 

    I'd be gobsmacked if Baston's deal does though.


    LlanjackJeff_Cowbridge
  • Ponty

    ..had they not gone the club would have been bankrupted unless bailed out by the US investors.

    You make it sound as though they are our saviours. Who was it who took us to the position that necessitated that action ? It was HJ and the yanks. 

    Could you explain what you mean by being bailed out by the investors. They have put nothing into the club to date, so how have they bailed us out ?
    enaitch
  • edited August 2018
    @Ponty_Jack There a few interesting points in your post, which your language doesn't help with.

    The transfer window hasn't been a success, but I agree it was necessary, most of the players had to go, as a result of the major cash flow problem the Board created. There has been obvious panic selling as the value we have received for players deteriorated the closer we got to the transfer window closedown, ending with the unedifying spectacle on TDD.

    Bony is costing us £4m minimum on salary and the same amount again in contract write down, so that £8m minimum which is about 27% of your £30m budget.

    £500k is the average Championship salary not the maximum so there will be and should be players on more than this, but they need to be worth it. Glad to see you have woken up to the fact that Bony isn't worth 16 players in our squad.

    Those that create the mess should sort it out, if they are capable, however your analysis would result in seeing as a success if we hit the budget and get relegated, because it isn't easy to find the players we need, certainly at the prices we are willing to pay. We couldn't do it in the transfer market it will be 10 times harder in the loan market.

    So let's take the red tinted eyeglasses off, so we can deal with the issues.

    The Board have f*cked up big time, resulting in potentially catastrophic reductions in the player staff in terms of numbers, quality and experience. And we aren't out of the financial Woods yet either, next year will be tougher.

    In the meantime, please suggest loan players who can operate as a regista, a reliable 10+ goals a season goalscorer, and a defensive rock as CB all within our price range. I believe we need 2 more, one in midfield and another goalscorer but let's start with the three most fans agree on!


    Jeff_Cowbridge
  • deekay said:
    Pablo

    In taking issue with point a) of StephenR's post, you raise an interesting point. I agree we fell into the trap of doing what all other clubs do. Spend big, on not necessarily good players, in the hope that they can get us over the survival line. However up to 3/4 years ago we prided ourselves on doing things differently, so why did we change ?
    Unfortunately, we were led by someone who had lost sight of that ethos and who thought he could succeed where all others had failed. This was entirely predictable, and even with my limited footballing knowledge, I posted here many times that I wouldn't give our DoF another penny as he would waste it all and is exactly what he did.
    It is only now that we have reverted to our original mentality that there is a glimmer of hope. However, I have absolutely no faith in HJ's ability to lead us, as he has burnt his bridges with far too many.
    so deekay you agree all other clubs did the same as it was proving to be the modus operandi of all premier league clubs yet you still persist in rubbishing the method even though you know it was employed by all clubs in that position.
    As I said I didn't agree with the method but it is how it goes. They didn't do it over and over if it was not  gaining some success. 
    So following your logic you'd castigate every board in the premier league for that approach.
    I just don't buy the laying of blame against one man for a culture that was prevalent in the premier league.
    'Unfortunately, we were led by someone who had lost sight of that ethos and who thought he could succeed where all others had failed.' - this statement I don't agree with as it contradicts your earlier statement of agreeing we were not an isolated case of trying to buy our way out of trouble.
    I'd hope people would just remove the blinkers and look at the picture beyond our team and see similarities in culture at other clubs. 
    Instead people prefer to lay blame on one person when all he did was follow what others before had done, and with some success. As I said people are basically calling for his head because we ran out of luck.
    That's fine but at least own up to the reason, and that reason was no incompetence.
    But hey I know it's not popular to explore reasons as people have entrenched views when it comes to relegation...they need a culprit even if the reason was a decision made by a group rather than one man.


  • Cadleigh said:
    Well put Gary. Let's re-set the clock going forward.

    Nordfeldt's injury wasn't bad luck, it was just 'accountability'. I am sure that for the rest of this season we'll have loads of terrible 'accountable' refereeing decisions going against us but at least we will have the comfort of knowing that luck didn't play a part.
    I take your point Cadleigh, however sarcastically put as per usual.

    You know exactly what I'm talking about though. You can't blame relegation on luck.
  • Am I right in saying that we now have a player wage bill of approximately 20M a year.
    Have we just made sales against purchases of 45M 
    Will we receive about 40M in parachute payments this year.
    Do we have 6M in season ticket sales + ticket sales
    So we have 91M in 20M out for this season.
    We didn't have 71M of debt did we (No)
    We do have 47M of wages that have nothing to do with the first team, this is what has been killing us for 3 years and will finish us if its not stopped.
    47M of very dubious wages that no one knows who gets what for doing what, just put on statements as 240 (non first team squad footballers) 18 media, admin and others.
    The problem has never been the wage bill of the first team squad which has averaged 50M a year with a turnover of 125M+, its the baggage that goes with it, all put in place by Jenkins.
    Martyn's figures on balancing the books are all based on players wages, this is not the problem, never was and still isn't .
    The board and owners need to be extra transparent in breaking down the 47M for the last 3 years. I know the trust are looking in to it but I fear these (Investors?) will be far too clever for them.
    These financial wise guys are bad news for football, we have the highest % non playing wage bill outside the top six teams in the land 

  • I think Ive reached a conclusion.

    'No, we can't all agree that.....'
    DubDragon
  • deekay said:
    Ponty

    ..had they not gone the club would have been bankrupted unless bailed out by the US investors.

    You make it sound as though they are our saviours. Who was it who took us to the position that necessitated that action ? It was HJ and the yanks. 

    Could you explain what you mean by being bailed out by the investors. They have put nothing into the club to date, so how have they bailed us out ?
    Deekay, I stated the high earners had to go.  Bony has to go.  It is not an option.  The club can no longer pay their wages.  If the club had kept them they would have run out of cash with out a doubt.

    What happens if the club runs out of cash and cannot pay the electricity and gas bills with a tax bill pending Deekay?   They go to the bank and Lloyds say we have heard rumours you cannot pay the bill's no chance of a loan. 
     
    It's Merthyr FC.   The U.S. investors and the Trust will have the choice of putting in more money to pay the bills or administration?  What's it going to be? The Trust have some cash.  

    Thankfully the club has sold £50m of payers and slashed the wage bill  by £40m so hopefully will not run out of cash.  The club tried to get Spurs involved for Mawson but they have Stadium problems.  Liverpool went for Shaquiri not Ayew J. It can manage its cash flow for this season. 

    The club need to be careful. The £7m for Woods I probably not a good idea  best to shelve it.   This should tell you things are tight and getting tighter.   It needs to be Rhys Healey on loan not Solanke. Can you pay half his wages Neil?.  ( knew I should not have asked.  Never heard such language.! ) 
  • I think Ive reached a conclusion.

    'No, we can't all agree that.....'
    It's good to talk though :#
    SpeakerJack
  • I think everyone is missing the point, 52% was on first team squad players 48% or 47M was on other wages, nothing to do with rent, rates etc.
    That's based on 99M spent on wages last year.
    The revenue was in excess of 127M.

    All I am asking for is a breakdown of the 47M everyone knows the squad wages.
    No one can explain it, I know Jenkins had 600K but am bemused on the rest.
    It averages out that 340 people had an average of 138K a year, we all know that is bollockss
    Where has that 47M gone each year since 2014/15.
    Ponty I know it costs a lot to run a club but can you or anyone tell me how much each media got, secretary's, admin, youth players, safety manager, etc etc it will never come to 47M.
    There are massive discrepancies in all the figures submitted in the media, all are different.
    The official accounts do not give a breakdown on salaries except players.
    The penny dropped with me a long time ago, when will you accept, its not only the football being messed up, its the money as well, savings made now are only ensuring their revenue doesn't change
  • Pablo said:
    deekay said:
    Pablo

    In taking issue with point a) of StephenR's post, you raise an interesting point. I agree we fell into the trap of doing what all other clubs do. Spend big, on not necessarily good players, in the hope that they can get us over the survival line. However up to 3/4 years ago we prided ourselves on doing things differently, so why did we change ?
    Unfortunately, we were led by someone who had lost sight of that ethos and who thought he could succeed where all others had failed. This was entirely predictable, and even with my limited footballing knowledge, I posted here many times that I wouldn't give our DoF another penny as he would waste it all and is exactly what he did.
    It is only now that we have reverted to our original mentality that there is a glimmer of hope. However, I have absolutely no faith in HJ's ability to lead us, as he has burnt his bridges with far too many.
    so deekay you agree all other clubs did the same as it was proving to be the modus operandi of all premier league clubs yet you still persist in rubbishing the method even though you know it was employed by all clubs in that position.
    As I said I didn't agree with the method but it is how it goes. They didn't do it over and over if it was not  gaining some success. 
    So following your logic you'd castigate every board in the premier league for that approach.
    I just don't buy the laying of blame against one man for a culture that was prevalent in the premier league.
    'Unfortunately, we were led by someone who had lost sight of that ethos and who thought he could succeed where all others had failed.' - this statement I don't agree with as it contradicts your earlier statement of agreeing we were not an isolated case of trying to buy our way out of trouble.
    I'd hope people would just remove the blinkers and look at the picture beyond our team and see similarities in culture at other clubs. 
    Instead people prefer to lay blame on one person when all he did was follow what others before had done, and with some success. As I said people are basically calling for his head because we ran out of luck.
    That's fine but at least own up to the reason, and that reason was no incompetence.
    But hey I know it's not popular to explore reasons as people have entrenched views when it comes to relegation...they need a culprit even if the reason was a decision made by a group rather than one man.



    But the issue is that whatever the culture, it is about who is applying it & how well. The directors might well have seen the way other clubs did it, might even have asked questions of, or got ideas from other Directors. They then made decisions of how we were going to mange "the culture" who we were going to appoint to do this & what form/shape it was going to take, & THEY GOT IT WRONG. So much so that, in my opinion, they saw the writing on the wall, couldn't get out of it & desperately sold the club (in an underhand way) to get out of the mess, using the excuse that we needed someone to "take us to the next level" when they should have been saying, " we've F***ed up & need someone to rescue us"
    In my opinion, the unconscionable thing about it was that, at least one of them had the audacity to stay at the club, even though he was part of the mismanagement of the club. It could possibly suggest that he doesn't recognise his part in this & isn't ashamed of it. (Psychologists have a name for this, amoral) 
    So I stand by a)  & if I had their ear, I would ask the owners to remove any previous directors (whose decisions put the club in this position, or who stood by & let it happen) from the Board
  • Whatever they made for the last two years they will make this year, for anyone to even think they have taken nothing is plain bonkers.
    Until everything is sold or there is no possibility of a return, only then will they walkaway.
    The team and supporters mean absolutely nothing to them, it wouldn't even surprise me if some of the DC players are being paid by us through various company's they have set up where we pay fees, not saying they do but I wouldn't put anything past their scheming.
Sign In or Register to comment.